QUOTE (Masta @ Feb 21 2010, 06:12 PM)
QUOTE (Bain @ Feb 21 2010, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (Masta @ Feb 18 2010, 10:08 AM)
1-No, it doesn't make sense. The reason the Taliban are still a force to be reckoned with after 9 years is because we always tell them when we are going to attack them, so they just leave the area and wait till we're done and come back and make a mess of things again.
2-Reminds me of the spring of '03 or '04 when NATO announced it would be conducting a huge airborne operation into the mountains during the Summer to take out the Taliban during the fighting 'off-season' when most Taliban were busy farming crops of Opium to fight(hence why the winter is most bloody since there isn't much farming to distract the Taliban from fighting). The Taliban weren't there by the time they went in and though they claimed the operation was a success 2-they only managed to burn down/blow up some empty buildings they suspected of being used by the Taliban and killed a few guys with AK's that probably weren't Taliban at all.
This war can't be won by showing the Taliban that kind of mercy, nor can this war be won by being merciless as that would just cause more civilians to join the Taliban's ranks. This war can't be won, period.
Unfortunately NATO isn't going to stop trying(and failing) for quite a while as Afghanistan is the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" and is far too strategically important to just hand back over to the Taliban. Just ask the Russians, they payed the price before and are now laughing at us for not learning from their mistakes.
Some people say Afghanistan doesn't have any resources so the war isn't about imperialism or corporate war profiteering and such, yet they clearly have never picked up a history book or geography book/map as if they had they'd know that Afghanistan has one of the most valuable resources in the Mid-East for the U.S and it's allies to exploit - location, location, location. It's not the "Cross roads of the Mid-East" for no reason, controlling the Mid-East can not be achieved without controlling the 'Stan.
3-The U.S doesn't give a shit about the Afghan people, they've done nothing but blow things up and destroy what economy they actually have(mainly Opium farming) pushing thousands of former farmers into working for the Taliban to support their families. But hey, we build them a new school every once and a while(so we can ensure they get a "proper" brainwashing, err... education), surely that will make up for destroying their lives.
I mean having my livelihood destroyed right now will surely be made up for by the fact my kids will be able to maybe have the intelligence to start businesses and such themselves, in 10 or 15 years... In the mean time rather than get paid by the Taliban to fight NATO forces I'll just do nothing and let my family starve.
NATO attempts to provide new options for sources of income have failed miserably, most of their programs don't pay enough for people to support their families and by participating in those programs they're families will likely be killed by the Taliban because NATO doesn't have enough forces to protect the people it woo's over by telling them they'll be protected.
4-Operation Enduring Clusterfuck will continue till NATO either is defeated or breaks apart due to internal strife caused by it, of which there is plenty.
For the record I have always opposed the Taliban's extremist religious belief's but most of the Taliban fighters these days are no more religiously extreme than an atheist, they are simply people with no other choice but to accept paychecks from the Taliban to support their families or people who have come to hate the occupation, as any sane person eventually would. I harbor no hate for those individuals, only for the NATO leaders that forced them into those positions.
1-Yes and No.
2-Something we have been doing and will do in the future has not and will not be on the news. They know a small part of the story. Taliban that is.
2-Also, you're dumb for saying that.
3-The ignorance with which you post is hurtful. We have put thousands in a terrible position in war to help the Afghan people. We are even training infantry to act as police and part of patrols in instances is literally to go talk to people, many seen on a day to week basis, just to talk about how things are going and how they feel.
4-Wait, hold on, that just validated everything you said.
1. care to expand?
2a. It doesn't matter if they only know a small part, the way a guerrilla force survives is by moving from area to area to evade the occupation forces main elements and going for the weak spots so if they even get a hint of an operation in a certain area they bail out and go wait it out elsewhere. I've read of NATO announcing operations in certain areas in attempts to get the Taliban to move to the actual area of operations but none apparently have been too successful since the Taliban just spread out rather than moving to another area and grouping en mass there.
Sometimes the Taliban does stay and do battle but most of the time they run, if they didn't run this conflict would have been over long ago.
NATO constantly ends up spending too much money and time on operations that have very limited success, that fact is not exactly a secret and is the main reason there is so much strife in NATO surrounding the Afghan mission and why so many countries want so little to do with it all.
2b. So it's stupid to mention that mostly what they achieve is blowing up empty buildings that are easily rebuilt and killing anyone with a gun that looks menacing in any way(usually just a few of them), even though as in Iraq households are allowed to have a gun and someone having a gun does not automatically make them Taliban just because they are in an area NATO forces are conducting an operation in.
What if someone wants to defend themselves so they get a gun and then when they hear some shooting they get their gun and go to check it out to try to protect their families and get blown apart cause some NATO trooper saw a raghead with an AK and that was good enough reason to blow him away?
Never mind the fact that there are all sorts of criminal elements that have nothing to do with the Taliban that get grouped in with them too, anyone with a gun that gets killed is Taliban whether true or not. Just like in Iraq when in many areas most of the violence was caused by criminal gangs rather than AQ terrorists or insurgents it was referred to as "insurgent violence" anyways. Do we call gangbangers or gangsters insurgents in America, Canada, Brittan, Germany, etc.?
3. Yeah, out of hundreds of thousands of troops we're sending out a few thousand to talk to people and listen to people and help people, then because we don't have enough troops there to protect them the Taliban see them talking with NATO troops and punish them by killing their families and making examples out of them. A little bit of fear goes further than a little bit of kindness mixed in with a whole lot of hell.
The CAF has attempted a few goodwill operations to provide medical aid and food and such to some villages in Afghanistan but those programs only worked till the troops got pulled from those villages to assist in combat operations elsewhere and those villagers became sitting ducks for the Taliban to exact revenge on them for taking aid from NATO.
Killing Taliban and jacking up those kill stats takes priority over protecting the Afghan people. When NATO forces come to a town/village and set up shop and say they'll stick around and protect the people but then some Taliban forces in another area cause a ruckus so those troops get sent there to reinforce instead then those villagers don't care about the big picture, they care that they have now been left defenseless against the local Taliban forces after they were told NATO would protect them.
You may see redeploying forces from one area to another to deal with the most violent regions as a priority for fighting a larger war but the Afghan people being left behind after false promises of security don't care about the larger war, they care about their own asses being left hanging in the wind for the Taliban to come back and make examples of them about why Afghan's shouldn't help NATO.
And then you say they should fight back themselves and help themselves against a militant force that a coalition of the world's most powerful militaries can barely handle and have not come close to defeating after over 8 years of heavy combat with advanced weaponry and equipment.
Yeah sure, why don't they go pick up an AK and go kill some Taliban, then the Taliban can exact revenge with a truck bomb that levels their whole village and gives them no chance to defend themselves. I can't understand why they wouldn't want to do that, they clearly are cowards... [/sarcasm]
4. So what, are you implying OEF hasn't been one giant fuck-up even after many of the commanders of NATO forces in the region have admitted that there have been a lot of problems with management and achieving operational successes over the many years this operation has been stumbling along?
You can blame it on the climate of the conflict and the damn libtards whining about civilians all the time and being pussies or you can blame it on Pakistan and their lack of ability to secure their country and it's borders but the fact remains warfare is about exploiting your enemies weaknesses in order to defeat them and the Taliban are exploiting the few weaknesses that the world's most powerful armed forces have in the region - ie, their arrogant stupidity in underestimating the Taliban early in the war, lack of proper knowledge of the people and culture they are fighting, and of course the political horseshit.
Less of Afghanistan is controlled by NATO forces now than in past years, the political climate of the war is changing and people are getting sick of this conflict(right or wrong) dragging on and on without a clearly foreseeable successful conclusion; as the Russians know well we picked a fight we couldn't win and now we're just wasting money and time and lives trying to save face.
Having a big body count may make you feel good and make it seem like we're winning but practically everything else says we're losing. It's too late for hearts and minds now and we did a shit ass job of it before and anti-NATO sentiment is growing, even many of those who support us are getting sick of us being there and it's time for us to stop pretending like we can win this.
If there's one thing that has been proven in Afghanistan it's that the longer we stay the more enemies we have to fight. Even beloved liberators turn into despised occupiers eventually when their presence just means continued violence.
1-Ok yeah, we do let them know when we are coming to certain areas. But they just dont close shop and leave always. Sometimes they get beat down in an area till they HAVE TO move and sometimes they leave before we get there. They are still a strong force because they have been fighting/training for thousands of years in this warfare, and the current taliban have thousands of fighters (at least 10) active and in hiding at a given moment. They use their system well. But its not always us telling them...being their reason to move that is. Sometimes its just us overpowering them and not being able to cover every foot of a country or city.
2A- America and specifically the Marine Corps is not NATO, and we as in American and moreso again the USMC is the group doing most of the operations right now.
2B-No, you dont know that. You sound like you're just repeating something you heard some random anti-war speaking celebrity said on an evening talk show. Our special forces in the Marines and other groups go out to parts of the country not mention on the news and in a few days to a week get hundreds of taliban confirmed kills. These are men with weapons ambushing our patrols or planning things. Its just not on the news.
In addition, there are strongholds of taliban so fierce in fighting (trained veterans and other things I cant say) that special force groups are having a rough time. There is a war going on that is not on the news.
All you hear about is where the media is, and they dont know where a lot of shit is happening. This is not Iraq. These men are serious soldiers, by life and profession. They dont fire an RPG and run. When convoys are ambushed volleys of 10-12 RPGS come in supported by heavy fire, expert snipers and more.
Whatever you are talking about may happen but these are individual cases and by far do not reflect most of what is happening. They are just unavoidable circumstances that come with the situation. Its terrible, and probably creates a lot more fighters but it is unavoidable.
3-You skipped over my last comment with a statement that is no more than an obvious point of reality. Do you think the thousands of troops that repair tanks, serve food, set up communications(radios), supply logistics, help with landings, and all other jobs should be left in villages to protect people? If not, then dont mention again that there are a few thousand people talking to them and protecting them and the rest arent. Thats simply, the world, and that was a childish point.
The only way to win a guerilla war is to get the people on our side. This is the only way possible. Its the hardest type of warfare to win so either you have to suggest a total war or a total withdrawl, because the only in between you're bitching about.
Its like this, say you are sitting in your house, and you know a neighbor of yours is a bad man. He has a pistol. He wants to steal your tv. Then another neighbor is a good man and has a rifle, and wants you to have your tv and be safe.
Thing is, this good neighbor lives a few blocks away, and has no car. The bad neighbor lives next door.
Once a day, the good guy comes over so you can get to sleep and watches your tv, since you cant all the time. You're simply not as strong as your bad neighbor.
You rest, and when you wake up he departs. Thing is, the bad neighbor will not mess with your tv when he is there, but he lives right next door so he sees your friend come in, leave, and knows any time of the days its simple for him to come steal it, maybe burn your house down, or simply piss on your lawn.
And to complicate things, if by some chance your bad neighbor is defeated by your good neighbor, on the other side of your house, and two doors down, pretty much most of your block, are all waiting because when he is defeated, they will take his place.
That is the Afghan war summarized.
4-Nato nato nato.
The Marine Corps has the most boots on the ground and you clearly dont know enough about it. America's Army totally fucked this up.
The Marines went in after 9/11, rocked the taliban, and handed the coutry to the army. Then, Iraq happened, and the marines were mostly all sent there. During that, the army let the taliban back in, and now, that Iraq has ended, guess what. Marines, go back to Afghanistan. Do what you did again, only now, we have to develope a new strategy and fight people who are more trained and dug in.
Solution is either, leave and let them have it all, or continue gaining a little but never complete the goal.
Were suceeding doing a lot over there, but guess what, unless pakistan, and the Poshtuans over there help us, the taliban will never be forced out.