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Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
the european theatre of wwii was pretty pointless eh i wish i read alt hisorty novels
Skinny 
QUOTE (Iced Coke @ Mar 23 2010, 06:13 AM) *
Welcome to civilisation America.

How the fuck does coercing people to pay for other peoples' expenses equate to civilisation?

And Heartless: If you weren't a racist, who probably sees nothing wrong with bombing the fuck out of France simply for being "ungrateful", you'd have my vote for World Führer.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE (Lelouch vi Britannia @ Apr 10 2010, 08:27 AM) *
QUOTE (Iced Coke @ Mar 23 2010, 06:13 AM) *
Welcome to civilisation America.

How the fuck does coercing people to pay for other peoples' expenses equate to civilisation?

And Heartless: If you weren't a racist, who probably sees nothing wrong with bombing the fuck out of France simply for being "ungrateful", you'd have my vote for World Führer.
Well, insofar as empathy is a civil trait...
Marney1
So anyone here got healthcare?
TreeFitty
I'm sure a lot of people here have health care.
Skinny 
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 11 2010, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Lelouch vi Britannia @ Apr 10 2010, 08:27 AM) *
QUOTE (Iced Coke @ Mar 23 2010, 06:13 AM) *
Welcome to civilisation America.

How the fuck does coercing people to pay for other peoples' expenses equate to civilisation?

And Heartless: If you weren't a racist, who probably sees nothing wrong with bombing the fuck out of France simply for being "ungrateful", you'd have my vote for World Führer.
Well, insofar as empathy is a civil trait...

Yes, but within reason. More empathy =/= more civilised.
Heartless
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr 10 2010, 08:16 PM) *
So anyone here got healthcare?


Military residuals, not much else.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE (Lelouch vi Britannia @ Apr 12 2010, 05:09 AM) *
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 11 2010, 09:40 AM) *
QUOTE (Lelouch vi Britannia @ Apr 10 2010, 08:27 AM) *
QUOTE (Iced Coke @ Mar 23 2010, 06:13 AM) *
Welcome to civilisation America.

How the fuck does coercing people to pay for other peoples' expenses equate to civilisation?

And Heartless: If you weren't a racist, who probably sees nothing wrong with bombing the fuck out of France simply for being "ungrateful", you'd have my vote for World Führer.
Well, insofar as empathy is a civil trait...

Yes, but within reason. More empathy =/= more civilised.
Well, there's 1000 years of back and forth arguing to be had here. I know it isn't a guarantee, but my gut feeling as a citizen of a socialised nation (Scotland) is that it's a good thing.

QUOTE (Rick Astley @ Apr 12 2010, 05:20 AM) *
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr 10 2010, 08:16 PM) *
So anyone here got healthcare?


Military residuals, not much else.
If I may ask a non-loaded question: doesn't that worry you? I'm perfectly fit and healthy (insert marathon times and benching stats here) but I suddenly broke my wrist in three places playing soccer (yep) the other week. That was completely unexpected, completely. I play more physical sports without harm, and like I said I'm fairly healthy, but these things happen (it was a once-in-a-million thing, but more than a million things happen in a month).

I'm a student, I only have so much money. I'm not sure what that would've cost me: it involved a simple examination, two X-rays,a splint and some painkillers. Plus 20% overheads and profit (as I've heard about insurance companies where there's no cheaper alternative) it could amount to quite a lot. Forgetting the politics of it, that would scare me. If I can break my wrist playing soccer, people who are less active could very easily incur huge costs.

[New paragraph, a little political] Imagine they're young, promising people who didn't go to university: how do they get a chance at life? To use an American-friendly example, what if he is a responsible and intelligent guy wanting to start a plumbing business (I'm not very imaginative. I'll refrain from calling him Joe). Imagine he incurred $20,000 of debt, could he get another $20,000 to start up a business, even if the companies only have it on faith that he could make $100,000 a year in 10 years? Could he get the trust to insure his kids at a reasonable premium, given his history of incurring debt when he was young?

In short, could an unfortunate broken arm in a football accident in high school make his life much much more difficult, even though he is a reasonable and intelligent man, who in a perfect America would be an unmitigated success, the kind the right wing love?
Marney1
You don't need to go to university to have a chance at life, I didn't and I own a (small) plumbing company.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
The grammar at the start of one of my paragraphs was a little off, but my point was that this guy didn't go to university but is very intelligent. He wants to start up a company, but has no major posessions to take the loan with. He has no degree to prove his intelligence, and he's unluckily incurred a bit of debt that he couldn't really help because of a broken arm.

I guess you're lucky in that you either a) never had such health trouble cool.gif did and could afford to go private or c) went NHS. The fact is, some people have no such things available.

I think in tangible, free-enterprise terms, that kind of story illustrates the benefit of a health service. Whether or not university is involved in this equation is kind of moot.
Spoiler
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr 12 2010, 04:55 PM) *
You don't need to go to university to have a chance at life, I didn't and I own a (small) plumbing company.

i am still doing a university degree (part time of cause). fact is that whether small or big, i just can't find a way to start a company. i don't know shit about nothing to start any way.

^like Homo said university's not essential but it's useful though.
Marney1
QUOTE (Spoiler @ Apr 13 2010, 03:18 PM) *
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr 12 2010, 04:55 PM) *
You don't need to go to university to have a chance at life, I didn't and I own a (small) plumbing company.

i am still doing a university degree (part time of cause). fact is that whether small or big, i just can't find a way to start a company. i don't know shit about nothing to start any way.

^like Homo said university's not essential but it's useful though.

I did a 4 and a half year college course and going to university wouldn't have taught me anymore I needed to know. If you want to work for yourself and progress to employing people it helps if you actually know what industry you'd like to work in first. What are you studying?
trathen93
ok,

1. whats the plumbing company called marney?

2. do you know a millionare called Eric (think thats the right spelling) marney

3. wasnt this topic about a US healthcare bill
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
My point was about healthcare. The fact universal health care doesn't exist in a SOCIALIST VACUUM is part of this issue.
Marney1
QUOTE (El-Nino @ Apr 13 2010, 09:28 PM) *
ok,

1. whats the plumbing company called marney?

2. do you know a millionare called Eric (think thats the right spelling) marney

3. wasnt this topic about a US healthcare bill

1. That would be like putting my name and address on iGTA.
2. I'm not sure, Eric what and from which area? If I do he isn't a friend anyway.
3. Yes.
Spoiler
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr , 05:10 PM) *
QUOTE (Spoiler @ Apr 13 2010, 03:18 PM) *
QUOTE (marney1 @ Apr 12 2010, 04:55 PM) *
You don't need to go to university to have a chance at life, I didn't and I own a (small) plumbing company.

i am still doing a university degree (part time of cause). fact is that whether small or big, i just can't find a way to start a company. i don't know shit about nothing to start any way.

^like Homo said university's not essential but it's useful though.

I did a 4 and a half year college course and going to university wouldn't have taught me anymore I needed to know. If you want to work for yourself and progress to employing people it helps if you actually know what industry you'd like to work in first. What are you studying?

Electronics engineering. Like i said where do i start?
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
I don't really see the danger in your address being on the Internet...John Munro, 45 Marchmont Crescent, Edinburgh v.gif

ANYWAY, healthcare in the United States anyone?
Spoiler
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 14 2010, 02:53 AM) *
I don't really see the danger in your address being on the Internet...John Munro, 45 Marchmont Crescent, Edinburgh v.gif

ANYWAY, healthcare in the United States anyone?


i knew the bill is important and left leaning but i don't know the details. everyone has to buy health insurance, yes?

we have similar system here (Singapore) where 20% of total income has to transfer to Central Providence Fund. This is automatically done by the employer so we only take 80% of our pay. on top of that the employer will contribute 13%. From 33% total, 6.5% goes to Medisave. BUT Medisave is not an insurance and it's meant to be used as cash only. so if i am working for 10 years with middle income, i can't afford to pay $10,000 worth of medical bill. so we have to buy another insurance. talk about socialism in democracy... it's never that effective as it's meant to be but still better than nothing.
Heartless
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 13 2010, 10:53 PM) *
I don't really see the danger in your address being on the Internet...John Munro, 45 Marchmont Crescent, Edinburgh v.gif

ANYWAY, healthcare in the United States anyone?


Why should my military benefits bother me? On the contrary - my experience with military health care is exactly why I'm against social medicine. They used a hammer and a pick to take out some bad teeth once, and every pain I had they threw ibuprofen or percocet at. Nevermind that it took a long time to get seen, so it was a fun way to waste the day by going on sick call.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE (Rick Astley @ Apr 16 2010, 04:30 AM) *
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 13 2010, 10:53 PM) *
I don't really see the danger in your address being on the Internet...John Munro, 45 Marchmont Crescent, Edinburgh v.gif

ANYWAY, healthcare in the United States anyone?


Why should my military benefits bother me? On the contrary - my experience with military health care is exactly why I'm against social medicine. They used a hammer and a pick to take out some bad teeth once, and every pain I had they threw ibuprofen or percocet at. Nevermind that it took a long time to get seen, so it was a fun way to waste the day by going on sick call.
That's a funny way to treat a patient. I'd urge you not to take it as typical, I've been on NHS and private wards and they're much of a muchness here. Although I suppose you do get bigger rooms if you pay, which you have every right to do.
Heartless
And that's the thing, we can't compare this to NHS. This is America, and we'll probably base this on whatever fuckery we're already doing.

Fun Fact: We already have free clinics in the inner cities. The doctors are mostly people working for peanuts as they pay off their mountain of medical school debts. It's a deal that our board of health has set up to provide more medical aide to the poor. I remember when I was younger I'd go there instead of telling my parents that I got into another fight at school. It was a fun place to go to see an entire ER waiting room bursting with migrant workers who had table sawed off a thumb or some black kid with a dime sized hole punched through him. Yeah, it sucked. But it was free dammit. And that's all that matters. I think Stalin said, Quantity has it's own quality.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
It's just an ideological point I'm trying to make, the common "derpaderpderp socialism death panels Stephen Hawking" arguments tend to falter when seen through the prism of the NHS. The differences, like you said, are cultural.
Heartless
But your NHS isn't so hot either. I've heard plenty of complaints - some even on this forum. Most of what I've heard about NHS in practice has been negative; Hawaii tried it and failed. Sweden, the home of free health care, was swamped with so many calls they had to place a limit on three non-essential a year, and encourages people to phone ahead to see if it really matters.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Most of the people who complain about the NHS are either a) idiots (I broke a few bones once and there was a drunk girl in front of me shouting about how her stubbed toe was so damn important) or cool.gif people who would be completely adrift otherwise.

Generally though, it's good. People will complain publically more about things they're given compared to things they pay for anyway; that's no indictment of the healthcare system, rather one of human nature.

And anyway, private healthcare's available.
Heartless
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Apr 16 2010, 04:45 PM) *
Most of the people who complain about the NHS are either a) idiots (I broke a few bones once and there was a drunk girl in front of me shouting about how her stubbed toe was so damn important) or cool.gif people who would be completely adrift otherwise.

Generally though, it's good. People will complain publicly more about things they're given compared to things they pay for anyway; that's no indictment of the healthcare system, rather one of human nature.

And anyway, private healthcare's available.


I've held down enough years of customer service jobs to know that nobody writes a comment card just to say they had a wonderful service. The problem with a combined health care system that's public and private is that I end up paying for my own medical costs, your broken bones and that drunk bird with the stubbed toe. No thanks! Besides, this is cultural. I'm American dammit! I make my own way in the world, ithout help from others,
demon
QUOTE (OptimumPx @ Nov 8 2009, 03:01 PM) *
QUOTE (marney1 @ Nov 8 2009, 01:30 PM) *
QUOTE (TreeFitty @ Nov 8 2009, 06:11 PM) *
Good for those that need it. bad for everyone else who has their own and will end up paying for it.

You sure? I mean have you read the bill right through?

I'm sure no congressmen had the chance to before voting on it.

Health Care Bill PDF

1017 pages? Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick!

Well we needed some kind of reform, after all it was getting ridiculous and the money issue was getting several thousand dollars on the wrong side of uncomfortable.

Did you hear about the family who's son was murdered? The guy was in college but was beaten to death by his room mate. 911 was called and he was rushed to the Emergency Room! But after looking at him for 5 minutes they knew he was lost and he died.

Then the hospital billed his parents $29,186.50 for that 5 minutes. That number isn't an error, that's how much 5 minutes of their time is worth in the Emergency Room of the UC Davis Medical Center in Sacramento, California.

Five goddamn minutes. That's $5,837.30 a minute.

No wonder medical care is one of the leading causes of bankruptcy...

Healthcare is a fundamental right that should not depend on if you can afford your own insurance or not. I believe this reform is a big step forward.

That example of the hospital billing the parents almost makes me throw up. The current system has failed and it's rotten. Where does all the money go? I think maybe doctors make too much money, or the hospital owners are too greedy. Or both.


"everyone else who has their own and will end up paying for it" - they can discontinue their private insurance and they won't have to pay for both.
Heartless
Most of healthcare cost goes to insurance. The system didn't fail until we allowed people to file frivolous malpractice suits.
demon
QUOTE (Rick Astley @ Apr 16 2010, 06:46 PM) *
Most of healthcare cost goes to insurance. The system didn't fail until we allowed people to file frivolous malpractice suits.

And the insurance companies pays out to the hospitals.

Your system allowing people to file frivolous lawsuits needs a reform. When people can get millions if they win a stupid case then too many are going to try and hit that jackpot. And stupid lawsuits are a waste of resources.

Here, the loosing party in court often have to pay the costs for both parties and for that reason people think twice before they file a lawsuit.

Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Generally agreed, Heartless. I wouldn't argue that Americans are very likely to resist nationalised healthcare (not that the system currently being pushed now is any such thing), but in time most will come to see benefits...

demon: Doctors do not get paid well enough. Call it a special interest if you like, but those guys have 8 years of training (in the US), and they have to be selected from the best students around. Applying the same brains, time and effort to any other career path would likely get you a lot more money.

Actually, fuck likely. Medicine is a Hell of a lot more difficult than law or business, it takes longer and runs up more debt. Either of those paths could easily lead you to earn a lot more than a doctor. Egotistical and self-interested yes, but doctors are NOT well paid for the effort they put in. Beaurocracy takes the money.
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