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Handsome B Wonderful
QUOTE
No opt-out of filtered Internet
Policy to be set after trial
Darren Pauli 13/10/2008 15:10:00

Australians will be unable to opt-out of the government's pending Internet content filtering scheme, and will instead be placed on a watered-down blacklist, experts say.

Under the government's $125.8 million Plan for Cyber-Safety, users can switch between two blacklists which block content inappropriate for children, and a separate list which blocks illegal material.

Pundits say consumers have been lulled into believing the opt-out proviso would remove content filtering altogether.

The government will iron-out policy and implementation of the Internet content filtering software following an upcoming trial of the technology, according to the Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy.

A spokesman for Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said the filters will be mandatory for all Australians.

“Labor’s plan for cyber-safety will require ISPs to offer a clean feed Internet service to all homes, schools and public Internet points accessible by children,” Marshall said.

“The upcoming field pilot of ISP filtering technology will look at various aspects of filtering, including effectiveness, ease of circumvention, the impact on internet access speeds and cost.”

Internet Service Providers (ISPs) contacted by Computerworld say blanket content filtering will cripple Internet speeds because the technology is not up to scratch.

Online libertarians claim the blacklists could be expanded to censor material such as euthanasia, drugs and protest.

Internode network engineer Mark Newton said many users falsely believe the opt-out proviso will remove content filtering.

“Users can opt-out of the 'additional material' blacklist (referred to in a department press release, which is a list of things unsuitable for children, but there is no opt-out for 'illegal content'”, Newton said.

“That is the way the testing was formulated, the way the upcoming live trials will run, and the way the policy is framed; to believe otherwise is to believe that a government department would go to the lengths of declaring that some kind of Internet content is illegal, then allow an opt-out.

“Illegal is illegal and if there is infrastructure in place to block it, then it will be required to be blocked — end of story.”

Newton said advisers to Minister Conroy have told ISPs that Internet content filtering will be mandatory for all users.

The government reported it does not expected to prescribe which filtering technologies ISPs can use, and will only set blacklists of filtered content, supplied by the Australia Communications and Media Authority (ACMA).

EFA chair Dale Clapperton said in a previous article that Internet content filtering could lead to censorship of drugs, political dissident and other legal freedoms.

“Once the public has allowed the system to be established, it is much easier to block other material,” Clapperton said.

According to preliminary trials, the best Internet content filters would incorrectly block about 10,000 Web pages from one million.


http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1399635276

Excuse me if i get a bit ranty. You can understand why.

Wow. A world without hardcore porn, free music, and no access to DIY bombs. If this comes to pass (which is unlikely, considering every single Aussie ISP will kick up a stink), I'm moving to New Zealand, or better still, Canada. Why should anyone have to opt out of kiddy safe internet access? It's up to parents to decide what their kids see, not the government.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't this plan originally meant to be opt in child safety software? At what point did it change to this arcane monstrosity of an idea? Australia takes another step towards becoming the new China. All thanks to Kevin "My white devil surname is Rudd" Wong.

Ha, and the left thought John Howard was conservative. At least we didn't lose any freedoms in the 11 years he was in. In less than a year, Rudd has brought in Alcopop taxes and this shit. All while spending more time overseas speaking Mandarin to anyone who gives a rat's arse about the stupid cunt.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Hey you beat us to it congrats.

brb anarchists cookbook
DiO
What a load of ass vomit. Yes, come to Canada.
Hardcore Ottoman
Holy fuck. Australia is no longer awesome anymore... sorry. Go to New Zealand, better climate.
PabloHoneyOle
Wow.

I can't believe this will even come to pass.

I would not live in a country which censors my Brazilian Fart porn. Riot in the streets.
Hardcore Ottoman
Fart porn is so fucking hilarious... to me it's comedy, not porn.
Skinny 
It won't even pass, don't worry.
Handsome B Wonderful
^Hopefully

QUOTE
Australia's Internet filter: could legal content be banned, too?
By Nate Anderson | Published: October 28, 2008 - 05:15AM CT

Liberal democracies aren't generally pleased with massive state-run mandatory Internet filtering schemes, but Australia's government is plowing ahead with just such a project. Stoking fears that such a scheme could easily blacklist legal content from all Australians, one national politician has now called for precisely that sort of a blacklist. Under the "Family First" party's scheme, hardcore sex and drug content would be added to the list of "illegal" content, even though they are actually legal for adults to view offline.

Family First isn't a major party—it has only one federal member of Parliament—but it does command more regional support. While massive federal government intervention in the Internet might not seem to be an especially conservative principle, Family First argues that the porn problem has reached epidemic levels, that parental responsibility simply isn't workable, and that kids are stumbling over damaging material both purposefully and by accident. Government needs to act.

The party's federal legislator, Steve Fielding, is opposed to both a "fart tax" (PDF) and to an unfettered Internet. The party "will work to achieve Government commitment to establish a Mandatory Filtering Scheme at the ISP Server Level in this country," says the official party plank (PDF). The government agrees, and it has been pursuing a two-tiered scheme. The first tier would be a "clean feed" that filters porn and "illegal content," and it would be optional. The second tier would filter only "illegal content" and would be mandatory for all Australians.


But what would be included in "illegal content"? The government isn't saying yet, but Family First has its own ideas. The Sydney Morning Herald asked Fielding what he envisions for the mandatory feed.

"Family First would consider a mandatory ISP-based filtering system that protects children by blocking illegal content like child pornography, but allows adults to opt out of filtering to access material classified R18+ or less," said the party.

The statement indicates that any material rated above R 18+ (including X 18+ and "refused classification") would fall under the mandatory blacklist and could not be accessed through any Australian ISP. Such material is currently legal for Australian adults.

The free speech concerns of a politicized blacklist that includes legal material are profound, and they are stressed by groups like the "No Clean Feed" campaign. But there are technical concerns as well.

The System Administrators' Guild of Australia, SAGE-AU, issued a statement again stressing its opposition to Internet filtering on grounds that it simply wouldn't work. "SAGE-AU remains concerned that the filters tested are unable to provide an effective, reliable filtering solution with the performance required for modern broadband connections," she said. "The filters tested have demonstrated an excessively high exclusion rate of legitimate Internet content."

The government's own testing has shown that the filters still have serious problems with false positives and can degrade network performance from 20-75 percent. If Australian Internet users aren't thrilled about the metered 'Net connections that are common in the country, we can only imagine how much they will enjoy metered connections that run 20-75 percent slower and censor the Internet.


Bolded is what i'm worried about. Arsehat religious folk and their influence. X rated porn is sold legally in Canberra, and is not illegal to possess in any state, so why the hell would they want to block all access to it?

Labor apparently only wants to ban sites with content that is illegal, which i have no problem with, although illegal porn is mostly distributed via P2P, so the government will only be successful in frustrating horny blokes and slowing down the internet.

Speaking of the internet, degraded network performance doesn't quite sound like faster internet for all "working families", does it K-Rudd?

Anyway, to make this more simple. As far as i know, the following is proposed under the scheme
Content bound for complete blockage (even if you opt out of the child safety filter)
Child Porn
Pro euthanasia websites (possibly)
Terrorist material
Sites containing excessive violence
Sites containing info on bomb making etc
Beastiality
Sites containing info on how to make drugs
Pro anorexia sites (possibly)
Violent porn
Porn? (labor has been very secretive about what types of porn will be blocked)

Content blocked by child safety filter
All off the above, obviously
Sites containing nudity (if the filter is as dodgy as it seems, this will also include breast cancer websites that have any pictures including breasts)/ soft porn (to what degree, i don't know. Being 'child friendly', they'll probably even block women in bikinis)
Sites containing excess violence (may even include any sites linked to MA and R rated movies and games. Which means possibly even the GTAIV website. And youtube)
Sites containg drug use
Sites containg offensive material (racist websites, anything that discriminates against a certain group)

Labor has not yet informed the public how exactly we will be able to opt out of the child safety filter. I'm sure it will be a long process that makes you feel like a sicko who won't think of the children.

Something else i found interesting whilst reading various papers at work was what the general public thinks about this. An online survey of 2000 people found that 86 percent of people were against the filter, while in the personal views sections, all males were against the filter, whereas every female asked thought it was a good idea, and that our kids need protection from 'predators in chat rooms', as one woman said. Of course, chat rooms won't actually be blocked by the filter. Just another reason why women should be permanently chained to the kitchen table.

What will be targeted after this? Will we see a ban on all metal and rap containing offensive material? A ban on all games that aren't rated PG? Who the fuck knows with these bunch of cunts. Seriously, somebody here name one decent thing that labor has done since gaining power last year.
DiO
The solution...take away women's right to vote.
PabloHoneyOle
Better download all the fart porn you can, NOW.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(Handsome B. Wonderful @ Oct 30 2008, 11:54 AM) [snapback]1470246[/snapback]
Anyway, to make this more simple. As far as i know, the following is proposed under the scheme
Content bound for complete blockage (even if you opt out of the child safety filter)
Child Porn
Pro euthanasia websites (possibly)
Terrorist material
Sites containing excessive violence
Sites containing info on bomb making etc
Beastiality
Sites containing info on how to make drugs
Pro anorexia sites (possibly)
Violent porn
Porn? (labor has been very secretive about what types of porn will be blocked)
!!!

Oh my God. I can barely believe I'm reading this. I won't insult anyone here by pointing out how ridiculously totalitarian this is.
Skinny 
QUOTE
hardcore sex and drug content would be added to the list of "illegal" content
QUOTE
Pro euthanasia websites

I think we may be losing in our fight for liberty sad.gif
Qdeathstar
QUOTE(Handsome B. Wonderful @ Oct 20 2008, 10:23 AM) [snapback]1469189[/snapback]
QUOTE
No opt-out of filtered Internet
Policy to be set after trial
Darren Pauli 13/10/2008 15:10:00

Australians will be unable to opt-out of the government's pending Internet content filtering scheme, and will instead be placed on a watered-down blacklist, experts say.

Under the government's $125.8 million Plan for Cyber-Safety, users can switch between two blacklists which block content inappropriate for children, and a separate list which blocks illegal material.

Pundits say consumers have been lulled into believing the opt-out proviso would remove content filtering altogether.

The government will iron-out policy and implementation of the Internet content filtering software following an upcoming trial of the technology, according to the Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy.

A spokesman for Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said the filters will be mandatory for all Australians.

“Labor’s plan for cyber-safety will require ISPs to offer a clean feed Internet service to all homes, schools and public Internet points accessible by children,” Marshall said.

“The upcoming field pilot of ISP filtering technology will look at various aspects of filtering, including effectiveness, ease of circumvention, the impact on internet access speeds and cost.”

Internet Service Providers (ISPs) contacted by Computerworld say blanket content filtering will cripple Internet speeds because the technology is not up to scratch.

Online libertarians claim the blacklists could be expanded to censor material such as euthanasia, drugs and protest.

Internode network engineer Mark Newton said many users falsely believe the opt-out proviso will remove content filtering.

“Users can opt-out of the 'additional material' blacklist (referred to in a department press release, which is a list of things unsuitable for children, but there is no opt-out for 'illegal content'”, Newton said.

“That is the way the testing was formulated, the way the upcoming live trials will run, and the way the policy is framed; to believe otherwise is to believe that a government department would go to the lengths of declaring that some kind of Internet content is illegal, then allow an opt-out.

“Illegal is illegal and if there is infrastructure in place to block it, then it will be required to be blocked — end of story.”

Newton said advisers to Minister Conroy have told ISPs that Internet content filtering will be mandatory for all users.

The government reported it does not expected to prescribe which filtering technologies ISPs can use, and will only set blacklists of filtered content, supplied by the Australia Communications and Media Authority (ACMA).

EFA chair Dale Clapperton said in a previous article that Internet content filtering could lead to censorship of drugs, political dissident and other legal freedoms.

“Once the public has allowed the system to be established, it is much easier to block other material,” Clapperton said.

According to preliminary trials, the best Internet content filters would incorrectly block about 10,000 Web pages from one million.


http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1399635276

Excuse me if i get a bit ranty. You can understand why.

Wow. A world without hardcore porn, free music, and no access to DIY bombs. If this comes to pass (which is unlikely, considering every single Aussie ISP will kick up a stink), I'm moving to New Zealand, or better still, Canada. Why should anyone have to opt out of kiddy safe internet access? It's up to parents to decide what their kids see, not the government.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't this plan originally meant to be opt in child safety software? At what point did it change to this arcane monstrosity of an idea? Australia takes another step towards becoming the new China. All thanks to Kevin "My white devil surname is Rudd" Wong.

Ha, and the left thought John Howard was conservative. At least we didn't lose any freedoms in the 11 years he was in. In less than a year, Rudd has brought in Alcopop taxes and this shit. All while spending more time overseas speaking Mandarin to anyone who gives a rat's arse about the stupid cunt.


I think that the world as a whole is becoming increasingly conservative regarding personal privacy and freedoms. The Patriot Act, "Protest" Zones, and indeed some ISP filtering of the internet are becoming common place in America as well, and i'm sure in other places around the globe. China, who has made great strides in improving the economic freedoms of its state, has'nt made any movements towards expanding personal freedoms, and there's no hint that they plan to do this any time soon. In Russia, the KGB have taken over the government and it's essentially reverted to the old soviet empire....

It's actually a bit scary when you consider the sums of the direction the world is headed toward.




On the other hand, you can probably find a proxy to obtain unrestricted access, like they do in China.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Australia is a smaller and a more organised state, it would be easier to catch law breakers, surely?
Indy
The great firewall of China, that was hilarious.
Darth Sexy
Violent porn blocking aside, what will the government deem inappropriate? Will the Liberal Party site be blocked? Will forums discussing alternate forms of government be blocked? Will information about nuclear power stations be blocked? Why do we need Rudd to protect us? Although he may think he's a god, he's announcing retarded policy after retarded policy, without delivering on the things he promised during the election.

HBW: Well, one thing Labor has done is made people miss Howard. That's a good start. Also, I voted for Howard. Now all those ignorant twats may see why.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
You're hoping the other party will make things shit to justify your own party's bullshit, don't do that.

Howard didn't do anything this insane, but he was still a coalition-joining, Murdoch-pandering, Bush-apoligising nationalist.
Darth Sexy
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Nov 9 2008, 04:49 AM) [snapback]1471053[/snapback]
You're hoping the other party will make things shit to justify your own party's bullshit, don't do that.

Howard didn't do anything this insane, but he was still a coalition-joining, Murdoch-pandering, Bush-apoligising nationalist.

And he will go down in history as one of the best Prime Ministers this country has ever had.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Popular history, that irrefutable source of objective factual information.
Skinny 
QUOTE(Darth Sexy @ Nov 12 2008, 10:33 PM) [snapback]1471501[/snapback]
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Nov 9 2008, 04:49 AM) [snapback]1471053[/snapback]
You're hoping the other party will make things shit to justify your own party's bullshit, don't do that.

Howard didn't do anything this insane, but he was still a coalition-joining, Murdoch-pandering, Bush-apoligising nationalist.

And he will go down in history as one of the best Prime Ministers this country has ever had.

My favourites were the terror laws and the Iraq war, of course rolleyes.gif
Mad Space Ghost
Damn, looks like the aussies cant look up a horse giving it to some chick in the ass anymore... im so sorry skinny.
Darth Sexy
QUOTE(Gordon Frohman @ Nov 14 2008, 11:49 AM) [snapback]1471688[/snapback]
Damn, looks like the aussies cant look up a horse giving it to some chick in the ass anymore... im so sorry skinny.

My Saturday nights will be ruined.
Handsome B Wonderful
POST EDITED FOR YOUR VIEWING PLEASURE:


Defending porn on a site populated by young men is pretty useless, as i'm preaching to the converted, but here i go again anyway...

Once again, i must state that X-rated porn is not illegal in this country. It is legally available to buy in Canberra and NT, and while it's technically illegal to watch x-rated porn dvds/web content in the other states, everyone does it. The law classes x-rated as anything containing real depictions of sex. Why something that the vast majority of the population does throughout their lifetime is classified as illegal to watch is beyond me. Why not ban footage of real depictions of someone taking a shit, then?

As many in the media have stated, the majority of child porn these days is distributed by file sharing etc, not websites. Obviously labor (especially Stephen Conroy, who probably hasn't been on the net in the last decade, if at all) is living in the past.

Anyway, if worst comes to worst, and both people power and political opposition can't stop this shit, i'm going to download porn like crazy before the blacklist goes up, and then sell copies of it to desperate porn addicts who are too dumb to get around the filter. I'll be a porn baron! MUAHAHAHA!
psychř
At least there is some sanity left

It would never work anyway, it would just be like the school internet filters that everyone got around anyway.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(psychř @ Dec 13 2008, 12:58 AM) [snapback]1474921[/snapback]
At least there is some sanity left

It would never work anyway, it would just be like the school internet filters that everyone got around anyway.
Did the school have the right to arrest you for it?

I love iiNet. They want to take part to show the government they're being uppity dicks.
TommyVercettiPizza
Appalling. Still, I guess that's what you get when you vote in a bunch of lefties -liberals are hardly actually liberal with what they let their populace do are they...
Pieface
QUOTE(psychř @ Dec 13 2008, 02:58 AM) [snapback]1474921[/snapback]
At least there is some sanity left

It would never work anyway, it would just be like the school internet filters that everyone got around anyway.


Ours is now a County internet filter in our school. One of my friends tried to go on Pere Hiltons website, and now shes been logged for pornographic content. Same for someone who looked for an internet game, pornographic content o_O.
Skinny 
One thing I have yet to hear being discussed, is how much this will cost?
Heartless
I may be very American when I say this, but since Australia is little more then a watered down British Colony (in much the way Canada is) is it any wonder that something like this should come to pass? The UK, Australia and Canada are quickly reaching the Nanny State description, and this shows as only a logical march of progression. You guys need a fucking revolution, stat.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
I think that comment is American enough to be instantly discarded.
Heartless
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 23 2009, 02:33 AM) [snapback]1486357[/snapback]
I think that comment is American enough to be instantly discarded.



Sure. But it's not like your opinion matters anymore. And given another five years, it's likely things like this (Internet censorship in China and now Australia) will spread to your country as well. And then I doubt you'll be able to access this site. After all, isn't it promoting a game based around violence and degradation of women, and making fun of euthanasia?

I like these articles because it makes me glad to live here.

Edit - These are the current 13 "Enemies of the Internet", how long until where you live is added?

Belarus
Burma
China
Cuba
Egypt
Ethiopia
Iran
North Korea
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Zimbabwe
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 23 2009, 08:43 AM) [snapback]1486366[/snapback]
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 23 2009, 02:33 AM) [snapback]1486357[/snapback]
I think that comment is American enough to be instantly discarded.



Sure. But it's not like your opinion matters anymore. And given another five years, it's likely things like this (Internet censorship in China and now Australia) will spread to your country as well. And then I doubt you'll be able to access this site. After all, isn't it promoting a game based around violence and degradation of women, and making fun of euthanasia?

I like these articles because it makes me glad to live here.

Edit - These are the current 13 "Enemies of the Internet", how long until where you live is added?

Belarus
Burma
China
Cuba
Egypt
Ethiopia
Iran
North Korea
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Tunisia
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Zimbabwe
Oh fuck off and stop trolling. There's virtually no opposition to selling violent games to people of age in this country, unlike in yours.
Heartless
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.


TwoFacedTanner
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 24 2009, 09:58 PM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.


Because of fucking cows.
Those curry scented outsourced American jobs don't know what they're missing.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 03:58 AM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.
Are we talking about Germany or India banning Fallout and removing blood on GTA (OH GOD MY FREEDOM)? No we're goddamn not, we're talking about you're petty goddamn nationalism, and insistance that America is intrinsically Free and all other countries are intrinsically Not, flying in the face of the Patriot Act and an often mangled national understanding of the definition of the concept.

Say what you will about Europe, but one thing that is basically inarguable is that civil liberties come higher up the agenda than religion, the right to pursue wealth, security and other values which are considered equal or surpassing them in America.
Heartless
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 24 2009, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1486774[/snapback]
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 03:58 AM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.
Are we talking about Germany or India banning Fallout and removing blood on GTA (OH GOD MY FREEDOM)? No we're goddamn not, we're talking about you're petty goddamn nationalism, and insistance that America is intrinsically Free and all other countries are intrinsically Not, flying in the face of the Patriot Act and an often mangled national understanding of the definition of the concept.

Say what you will about Europe, but one thing that is basically inarguable is that civil liberties come higher up the agenda than religion, the right to pursue wealth, security and other values which are considered equal or surpassing them in America.



Oh look - Euro-fag is telling me all about the inherent evils of the Patriot Act. I'm sure you read all about it on Wikipedia. If you actually lived here you'd probably know that not a single person has ever had anything negative happen to them that they didn't deserve - so I'd wager the Act was pretty fucking spectacular. You think my government gives a shit about me having phone sex with Mary Jane Rottencrotch? No, they care more about terrorist cells in Buffalo planning to detonate the oil pipeline that connect most of the Great Lakes nuclear reactors with NYC. Which they apprehended.

And to hell with this 'civil liberties' crap, I've had about enough of it. If you really believe that a monkey printed in a cartoon is a representation of some gollywog half-breed, then do us all a favor and go fuck yourself. If you think giving Mary Jane Rottencrotch a 600 dollar check for free bundled with her taxes because she makes 7.50 an hour, then go fuck yourself. I want a real job, and the ability to pursue my own wealth and station. I don't need some uppity government sticking it's dick in my face and telling me how I'm going to do this or that.

If I want to buy a video game like Postal, I know I can. And it feels good. It feels great to know I can buy whatever I want, and own it, and not have to worry about the government telling me how to use it or enjoy it. When I subscribe to an internet service, I like being able to use it how I feel like it. I like knowing that if I wanted to, I could buy firearms at any major, or minor, dealer. I like the ability that I have to create my own world and my own life. If you're a foreigner reading this, do me a favor, and don't come here. I don't want to read another article where you think that you and twelve of your friends can afford a quarter of a million dollar condo on less then 20 grand a month. Pack it up and fuck off.
Handsome B Wonderful
QUOTE(Skinny. @ Feb 22 2009, 01:14 PM) [snapback]1486037[/snapback]
One thing I have yet to hear being discussed, is how much this will cost?

I think it was around 50 million, but i haven't heard much about the filter in the last 2 months. Probably because the ALP have bigger problems atm. Like saving the economy, and decrisping Victoria.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 08:43 AM) [snapback]1486799[/snapback]
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 24 2009, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1486774[/snapback]
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 03:58 AM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.
Are we talking about Germany or India banning Fallout and removing blood on GTA (OH GOD MY FREEDOM)? No we're goddamn not, we're talking about you're petty goddamn nationalism, and insistance that America is intrinsically Free and all other countries are intrinsically Not, flying in the face of the Patriot Act and an often mangled national understanding of the definition of the concept.

Say what you will about Europe, but one thing that is basically inarguable is that civil liberties come higher up the agenda than religion, the right to pursue wealth, security and other values which are considered equal or surpassing them in America.



Oh look - Euro-fag is telling me all about the inherent evils of the Patriot Act. I'm sure you read all about it on Wikipedia. If you actually lived here you'd probably know that not a single person has ever had anything negative happen to them that they didn't deserve - so I'd wager the Act was pretty fucking spectacular. You think my government gives a shit about me having phone sex with Mary Jane Rottencrotch? No, they care more about terrorist cells in Buffalo planning to detonate the oil pipeline that connect most of the Great Lakes nuclear reactors with NYC. Which they apprehended.

And to hell with this 'civil liberties' crap, I've had about enough of it. If you really believe that a monkey printed in a cartoon is a representation of some gollywog half-breed, then do us all a favor and go fuck yourself. If you think giving Mary Jane Rottencrotch a 600 dollar check for free bundled with her taxes because she makes 7.50 an hour, then go fuck yourself. I want a real job, and the ability to pursue my own wealth and station. I don't need some uppity government sticking it's dick in my face and telling me how I'm going to do this or that.

If I want to buy a video game like Postal, I know I can. And it feels good. It feels great to know I can buy whatever I want, and own it, and not have to worry about the government telling me how to use it or enjoy it. When I subscribe to an internet service, I like being able to use it how I feel like it. I like knowing that if I wanted to, I could buy firearms at any major, or minor, dealer. I like the ability that I have to create my own world and my own life. If you're a foreigner reading this, do me a favor, and don't come here. I don't want to read another article where you think that you and twelve of your friends can afford a quarter of a million dollar condo on less then 20 grand a month. Pack it up and fuck off.
O look, it's now hurrrr america fuck yeah

I said nothing of whether civil liberties are more important than wealth and capitalism. That is not the point of what I'm saying. Don't try and turn this into an over-arcing argument about everything our two countries (or your country vs. the rest of the world) stands for. I'm saying that in this particular case, the case of civil liberties, the case in question in this topic, European countries value civil liberties higher than values that Americans see as paramount. Can you possibly argue with this?
Heartless
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 25 2009, 06:59 PM) [snapback]1487042[/snapback]
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 08:43 AM) [snapback]1486799[/snapback]
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 24 2009, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1486774[/snapback]
QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 03:58 AM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]
Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.
Are we talking about Germany or India banning Fallout and removing blood on GTA (OH GOD MY FREEDOM)? No we're goddamn not, we're talking about you're petty goddamn nationalism, and insistance that America is intrinsically Free and all other countries are intrinsically Not, flying in the face of the Patriot Act and an often mangled national understanding of the definition of the concept.

Say what you will about Europe, but one thing that is basically inarguable is that civil liberties come higher up the agenda than religion, the right to pursue wealth, security and other values which are considered equal or surpassing them in America.



Oh look - Euro-fag is telling me all about the inherent evils of the Patriot Act. I'm sure you read all about it on Wikipedia. If you actually lived here you'd probably know that not a single person has ever had anything negative happen to them that they didn't deserve - so I'd wager the Act was pretty fucking spectacular. You think my government gives a shit about me having phone sex with Mary Jane Rottencrotch? No, they care more about terrorist cells in Buffalo planning to detonate the oil pipeline that connect most of the Great Lakes nuclear reactors with NYC. Which they apprehended.

And to hell with this 'civil liberties' crap, I've had about enough of it. If you really believe that a monkey printed in a cartoon is a representation of some gollywog half-breed, then do us all a favor and go fuck yourself. If you think giving Mary Jane Rottencrotch a 600 dollar check for free bundled with her taxes because she makes 7.50 an hour, then go fuck yourself. I want a real job, and the ability to pursue my own wealth and station. I don't need some uppity government sticking it's dick in my face and telling me how I'm going to do this or that.

If I want to buy a video game like Postal, I know I can. And it feels good. It feels great to know I can buy whatever I want, and own it, and not have to worry about the government telling me how to use it or enjoy it. When I subscribe to an internet service, I like being able to use it how I feel like it. I like knowing that if I wanted to, I could buy firearms at any major, or minor, dealer. I like the ability that I have to create my own world and my own life. If you're a foreigner reading this, do me a favor, and don't come here. I don't want to read another article where you think that you and twelve of your friends can afford a quarter of a million dollar condo on less then 20 grand a month. Pack it up and fuck off.
O look, it's now hurrrr america fuck yeah

I said nothing of whether civil liberties are more important than wealth and capitalism. That is not the point of what I'm saying. Don't try and turn this into an over-arcing argument about everything our two countries (or your country vs. the rest of the world) stands for. I'm saying that in this particular case, the case of civil liberties, the case in question in this topic, European countries value civil liberties higher than values that Americans see as paramount. Can you possibly argue with this?



This is your response? The best you can do? Of course, leave it to a European to boil a complex issue down to nothing and only view it as a single sided argument. By this logic, of course America values proprietary rights over civil liberties. Who can argue with that? But because we value wealth over the individual, I argue our rights are greater then yours, because they appeal to the greater majority then the fringe minority. Because Australia feels that blocking of certain websites will help small children, they are willing to disrupt general usage of the internet and possibly damage consumer health.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
I don't see that there was any need for trolling right there.

I'm feeling too calm to get riled up about nationalism, so I'll just state my points as I ought to have done before:
  • I think you're suffering from the myth of old Europe. Believe it or not, things aren't as bad as the American right wing likes to make out (or indeed as good as the left tries to make out). It's much like America, in most ways. I like to think of it like DNA, there seem to be a lot of differences between people on the surface, but in fact 99.7% is exactly the same.
  • At the same time, not all countries can be tarred with the same brush. A while ago, I found myself defending the policies of Indonesia or something, because it represented the Not America side of a falsely packaged dichotomy. There's more cultural variation between Malawi and New Zealand than there is between the UK and the US.
  • If there's one facet of politics you can bring British people to care about, it's important civil liberties. There are a lot of things you can say about America that are better than Britain, but I figure we're even less likely to capitulate to loss of rights here, in the name of security, or protecting children, or whatever. And even if not, the difference can't be huge.
  • This whole argument fails to take into account the kind of ultra-liberal countries like the Netherlands (correct me if I'm wrong, Dutch members -- even if I am, there are other liberal countries).
Qdeathstar
QUOTE(Amarillo Suave @ Feb 23 2009, 02:33 AM) [snapback]1486357[/snapback]
I think that comment is American enough to be instantly discarded.



Yay for trollingz!

QUOTE

There's virtually no opposition to selling violent games to people of age in this country, unlike in yours.
There's opposition to everything in America... Theres opposition to religion, there's opposition to athiesm. Theres opposition to gay anal, there's opposition to protection of marriage.... whats your point? Everyone has an opinion. However, bills that are meant to restrict sales have almost always failed. You can't say the same for Germany, Australia, ect..

QUOTE(Heartless @ Feb 25 2009, 03:58 AM) [snapback]1486760[/snapback]

Please, you sound like a tool. So people lobby putting "Kill All The Haitians" on the side of a box. Germans remove most blood splatter from games, and occasionally put switches in the option menus. Australia and the UK often fail to carry certain games outright, or just horribly mangle them. Even India banned the Fallout series.


Indeed.
Skinny 
At least mello seems to be giving himself alot more credibility by not calling out crap like "zomg EURO-fine gentleman". Anyway, Mello, America doesn't necessarily put less value on civil rights than the rest of the developed world. Britain, Australia etc. have laws permiting wire taps, and unwarrented searches. The Australian government can even revole your pass port whenever it wants and can lock you up for as long as they like without a lawyer, thanks to the recent terror laws. I'm sure if Michael Moore had made a movie about the laws in Britain, and not America, the Americans would be bragging to the poms about their glorious civil rights that are found nowhere else on earth. V_V

Heartless, America doesn't have more free trade and a greater ability to "shape your own destiny" than the rest of the developed world. Yes, we all see Bill O'Reily and Sean Hannity on the news every night, talking about how the wealth people have in America isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world, and that in Australia, they all live in huts in the middle of the outback and eat bats they find dead on the phone lines, and that in Britain there are Muslim extremists running around blowing themselves up constantly, and when you don't see any of them, there are certainly thirteen year old kids comming to rob you in between babies. Oh wait, but your point was about video games. About Australia banning one video game series and not having an AO rating. Get over it; people are petitioning for an AO rating to be created, so it's hardly our ticket on the train to fascism. You jingoists piss me off with this "omg Australia has a couple of crummy laws, that makes america a much better country!1!!!!11!" I don't see people from the Netherlands comming on here bragging about how their legalization of marijuana makes them "the most free nation on earth" or about how "it means they are free to pursue their own destiny, while everywhere else in the world, it's decided by the government", do you? You don't see people from Switzerland or Dubai comming on to brag about it's tax code saying the same things, do you? So shut the fuck up.
Heartless
QUOTE(Skinny. @ Feb 28 2009, 06:48 AM) [snapback]1487726[/snapback]
At least mello seems to be giving himself alot more credibility by not calling out crap like "zomg EURO-fine gentleman". Anyway, Mello, America doesn't necessarily put less value on civil rights than the rest of the developed world. Britain, Australia etc. have laws permiting wire taps, and unwarrented searches. The Australian government can even revole your pass port whenever it wants and can lock you up for as long as they like without a lawyer, thanks to the recent terror laws. I'm sure if Michael Moore had made a movie about the laws in Britain, and not America, the Americans would be bragging to the poms about their glorious civil rights that are found nowhere else on earth. V_V

Heartless, America doesn't have more free trade and a greater ability to "shape your own destiny" than the rest of the developed world. Yes, we all see Bill O'Reily and Sean Hannity on the news every night, talking about how the wealth people have in America isn't obtainable anywhere else in the world, and that in Australia, they all live in huts in the middle of the outback and eat bats they find dead on the phone lines, and that in Britain there are Muslim extremists running around blowing themselves up constantly, and when you don't see any of them, there are certainly thirteen year old kids comming to rob you in between babies. Oh wait, but your point was about video games. About Australia banning one video game series and not having an AO rating. Get over it; people are petitioning for an AO rating to be created, so it's hardly our ticket on the train to fascism. You jingoists piss me off with this "omg Australia has a couple of crummy laws, that makes america a much better country!1!!!!11!" I don't see people from the


Netherlands comming on here bragging about how their legalization of marijuana makes them "the most free nation on earth"

or about how "it means they are free to pursue their own destiny, while everywhere else in the world, it's decided by the government", do you? You don't see people from Switzerland or Dubai comming on to brag about it's tax code saying the same things, do you? So shut the fuck up.



Anyone care to hazard a guess on why Skinny is a total douche? If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - I'm smarter then all of you put together. Don't even try.
Skinny 
QUOTE(Heartless @ Mar 1 2009, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1487729[/snapback]
Anyone care to hazard a guess on why Skinny is a total douche?

Anyone care to hazard a guess on why Heartless is a total imbecile? I'm going to say it's because he failed to make any sound political comment, and went on to insist that I'm a douche. I can assure you, I go in pussy all the time, but not for maintenance purposes. wink.gif
Heartless

I would like to apologize for that last comment. I had no idea how awesome the British are, man those limey blokes got it covered. Insulting a one armed woman, top form.



QUOTE(Skinny. @ Feb 28 2009, 08:15 AM) [snapback]1487731[/snapback]
QUOTE(Heartless @ Mar 1 2009, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1487729[/snapback]
Anyone care to hazard a guess on why Skinny is a total douche?

Anyone care to hazard a guess on why Heartless is a total imbecile? I'm going to say it's because he failed to make any sound political comment, and went on to insist that I'm a douche. I can assure you, I go in pussy all the time, but not for maintenance purposes. wink.gif


And I don't need to respond to your shitty off the wall comments. Think before you post and I might give a damn.
Skinny 
QUOTE(Heartless @ Mar 1 2009, 12:18 AM) [snapback]1487732[/snapback]

Thank you for proving me right. The American neoconservatives do like to point out problems in other countries to be able to say that America is the best country in the world. Look boys, we have our very own Bill O'reilly on the forums.

Watch me use your logic to make a counter argument: You say America is superior to Britain because a pom attacked a one armed lady, I'll say Britain is superior for nationally abolishing slavery earlier than America. Of course, you could point out that America was under a states' rights system (and still is), but I'm using your logic in not considering variables.

You're not considering the variables because we don't know them. We don't know how many people are complaining about the woman, whether the people doing so are even reputable, or whether or not this would happen in America if there was a one handed children's show host, because it's not testable. It also said they received positive feedback about her, but not for one handed kid's TV show hosts in America, because there are none, so we can't make a comparison between cultures based on this. Well, I can't, you go ahead, running over the hill when you have none of the facts other than a few lines on CNN's website, with such little information that the case could have been easily distorted, and show your stupidity.

In one chat room, a father lamented that Burnell being on the show forced him to have conversations with his child about disabilities.

That could have been completely taken out of context. He might have been saying it's a good thing, because it forced him to have a conversation with his son that he might not have had otherwise.

QUOTE
And I don't need to respond to your shitty off the wall comments. Think before you post and I might give a damn.

There was nothing "off the wall" about what I posted. I'd say you are just too much of a idiot to think of a cogent argument. When I said that you shouldn't point to the fact that America doesn't ban video game sales as proof of how you are "the greatest and most free nation on the go" because people from the Netherlands don't point to their drug laws to do that, and people from Switzerland and Dubai don't do that with their tax code, so you shouldn't do it either, because you are only making yourself look like a pampas ass, it was a perfectly valid point that you ignored. Just like my points about America having little more free trade than other developed nations, and that people in Australia are lobbying for an AO rating.

Twit.
Heartless
QUOTE
The American neoconservatives do like to point out problems in other countries to be able to say that America is the best country in the world.
The problems facing America are many and varied, and better covered elsewhere, and I'll not waste anymore time on the subject. However, without argument I can say that civil rights are not one of them. I cannot name a single person in this country who has been refused food, shelter, or health care based solely on the basis of skin color, religion, or gender. I do however agree that many people have racist thoughts and ideologies, and I enjoy that I can have those in this country.

Nigger.

Look, I just exercised my freedom. And it felt great. A man in Scotland was jailed and fined for revving his engine in a racist manner when a few Muslims were present on an adjacent street corner. Absurd. On this topic; this is what makes America great. We're American, and being American means being White, and I'm not afraid to say it. Most minorities that live here identify themselves as Other. And I don't mind. What I mind is the number of Europeans who say, "of course I'm not white, I'm European." And now the British are trying to do the same; "I'm not white, because I live in Europe." Too bad the rest of Europe wants nothing to do with any of you. Trying to appease too many groups has left the UK a crater of personal values and standards and generated a new racism; I must hire Arab, or else the police will get me. I walked in line indeed.

QUOTE
You say America is superior to Britain because a pom attacked a one armed lady, I'll say Britain is superior for nationally abolishing slavery earlier than America.


Ironically, Africa stills supports a wide spread system of slavery. I argue we were merely engaging in free trade with a fellow economic power. They offered a good or service, and we bought it. Why is that wrong? We didn't go there and force them; the Arabs and African lords brought the idea to the British colonists.

This doesn't make up for the fact that Britain is so callous to persecute a naturally born individual with a physical deformity. I suppose if she was Pakistani who lost an arm to the Americans then it would be ok, right? What if it was the Indians in the Kashmir wars? Britain is two faced and painfully so. America is greater because a person with any number of limbs can succeed, where other countries would refuse them.

Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. - A nice lady in NYC.

You mentioned that we don't have any disabled celebrities here in America. You forgot David Paterson.

I'll respond to the rest later.
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Bye, this thread, it's just flaming now.
Skinny 
QUOTE(Heartless @ Mar 1 2009, 02:53 PM) [snapback]1487840[/snapback]
However, without argument I can say that civil rights are not one of them.

And did I ever say they were? No, I'm the one who said that American civil rights are on a par with the rest of the developed world.

QUOTE
A man in Scotland was jailed and fined for revving his engine in a racist manner when a few Muslims were present on an adjacent street corner.
Yes, I agree with you that there are too many people in the UK sucking up to the muslims; it's stupid. But America isn't a better country because of it.

QUOTE
They offered a good or service, and we bought it. Why is that wrong? We didn't go there and force them; the Arabs and African lords brought the idea to the British colonists.

This is quite possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever read. They weren't forced? Of course there was coercion, that's why they were brought to the west in chains and were not allowed to leave their masters property to find different work. Your justification for this, is that the slave's father's boss said it was okay? LOL.

QUOTE
This doesn't make up for the fact that Britain is so callous to persecute a naturally born individual with a physical deformity.
You're forcing me to repeat myself: we don't know the circumstances, like how many people were actually complaining, or whether or not the people were reputable. We don't know whether or not things were taken out of context. The new story provided very little information.

QUOTE
You mentioned that we don't have any disabled celebrities here in America. You forgot David Paterson.

No, I said disabled children's show hosts. Is he a children's show host?
Full Metal Monkey
QUOTE(Heartless @ Mar 1 2009, 03:53 AM) [snapback]1487840[/snapback]
What I mind is the number of Europeans who say, "of course I'm not white, I'm European." And now the British are trying to do the same; "I'm not white, because I live in Europe." Too bad the rest of Europe wants nothing to do with any of you.


I think thats bollox.

I don't think ive ever heard or ever will hear a white member of the british community say that.

I'd like to find your source for that.
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