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GMT
so, as I heard today on cnn, it's now official that the Astroland amusement park at Coney Island, which is the blueprint for Firefly Island (as we all know) eventually shuts down.
After over 100 years of duty, the park that "invented" modern days rollercoasters and the hotdogs closes it's doors and the rides are already for sale on the internet.
Not affected by the closing tho are the Cyclone and the Wonder Wheel because both are owned by the city and landmarked.

Reason for this closing are failed negotiations between the onwer of the ground and the family who owns the Astroland.
Next year, the ground might already be broken for new highrises and the fist new nyc rollercoaster since the Cyclone.

--

Sad on the one hand that this kind of a must-see sight in nyc closes, but then again, kinda funny cuz it's GTA counterpart is closed aswell unsure5.gif
OptimumPx
In a funny way Firefly Island can be looked at like a virtual time capsule...it preserves the way Coney Island looked before it is completly torn down and changed into something completly different.
GMT
that's definitely true laugh2.gif
PabloHoneyOle
Astroland is kind of a piece of shit. It's good that it's closing. Some New Yorkers will bitch that history is being destroyed, but honesty, with the price of property and the growing population in NYC, it's time for progress to step in. The Cyclone and Wonder Wheel will be the anchors for a new community that will feature a better amusement park (plus a new rollercoaster, or two) as well as residential and commercial space that will cater to upperclass individuals, thereby increasing property values; classic whitewashing/urban renewal/get darkie out practices. All about the $$$.
Hardcore Ottoman
Did you just say progress? Where is the progress? I just see potential future efficiency. Not progress.
PabloHoneyOle
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 15 2008, 05:11 PM) [snapback]1465056[/snapback]
Did you just say progress? Where is the progress? I just see potential future efficiency. Not progress.

Yeah, progress as opposed to regress. Moving forward is progression. Bigger better things.
Hardcore Ottoman
And this clearly isn't progress... we are regressing into the same habits of rebuilding old things to make them appear new. Recycling bullshit. Most of technology today isn't the product of progress.
PabloHoneyOle
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 16 2008, 04:21 PM) [snapback]1465153[/snapback]
And this clearly isn't progress... we are regressing into the same habits of rebuilding old things to make them appear new. Recycling bullshit. Most of technology today isn't the product of progress.

I'm not arguing your horseshit semantics with you. Everyone who is making money off that project or is directly related to it would probably call it progress and you a moron.
Skinny 
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 16 2008, 07:11 AM) [snapback]1465056[/snapback]
Did you just say progress? Where is the progress? I just see potential future efficiency. Not progress.

More efficient = progress.
OptimumPx
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 16 2008, 07:11 AM) [snapback]1465056[/snapback]
Did you just say progress? Where is the progress? I just see potential future efficiency. Not progress.

It's a park by the sea with fun rides, not a factory.

Anyway I don't think it's always good to completly give up the past to replace it with something more modern. What is currently being planned for the Astroland site will be hardly recognizable when finished outside of the location of the train station across the street that reads 'Coney Island'. This is like when they tore down Penn Station to build Madison Square Garden.

...or more like what they wanted to do to Grand Central Terminal. Leave a few tokens of the history and rip out everything else, including the heart of the place. In Grand Central's example they would have left the outside facade of terminal and build a hulking glass box on top of it that overshadowed even the Metlife Building behind it.


So I'll agree on one point...this isn't truly progress. It's a retread of what some people have been up to since the 1960's.
Hardcore Ottoman
QUOTE(Stoic Person Eater @ Sep 16 2008, 08:53 PM) [snapback]1465192[/snapback]
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 16 2008, 04:21 PM) [snapback]1465153[/snapback]
And this clearly isn't progress... we are regressing into the same habits of rebuilding old things to make them appear new. Recycling bullshit. Most of technology today isn't the product of progress.

I'm not arguing your horseshit semantics with you. Everyone who is making money off that project or is directly related to it would probably call it progress and you a moron.


You fail. Of course they'll call it progress. They'll call it anything they want. It's good PR. They get a big-ass check and several news stories.

And Skinny, more efficiency isn't exactly progress. I bet you can imagine one machine that actually would regress society, and still become efficient.

And thank you OPx. Making old machines more modern isn't progress. It's just making old machines more efficient. Very efficient.
PabloHoneyOle
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 18 2008, 01:23 AM) [snapback]1465327[/snapback]
QUOTE(Stoic Person Eater @ Sep 16 2008, 08:53 PM) [snapback]1465192[/snapback]
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 16 2008, 04:21 PM) [snapback]1465153[/snapback]
And this clearly isn't progress... we are regressing into the same habits of rebuilding old things to make them appear new. Recycling bullshit. Most of technology today isn't the product of progress.

I'm not arguing your horseshit semantics with you. Everyone who is making money off that project or is directly related to it would probably call it progress and you a moron.


You fail. Of course they'll call it progress. They'll call it anything they want. It's good PR. They get a big-ass check and several news stories.

Have you ever been there? The place is falling apart. It smells like piss and is inhabited by vagrants and drug dealers. Tearing down the old buildings that are out of code and abandoned to make way for new housing, business, and tourism opportunities. The new project will drive away the less desirable aspects of the area and enhance the positive historical side of Coney Island.

I don't understand why you're against it. Are you a NY resident? Will you miss the nostalgic factor? All of NYC has been rennovated or restored over the last 40 years that reflects a change from the old run down look. Changes have been made to historical buildings to accomodate wheelchairs, growing residency, new business, financial districts, corporate headquarters and International Relations centers. The only constant is change, Coney Island is merely a victim of PROGRESS.

It's not only the people who will be profitting from the redevelopment who will call it progress. All of the families who will be able to go to Coney Island and feel safe will call it progress. All of the people who buy homes in the new area will call it progress. All of the new business owners and the people they hire to staff those businesses will call it progress. The only one who won't call it progress is some kid on a videogame website who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

Don't reply without citing examples specific to Coney Island, not just some idealic propaganda about big business making profits.

Hardcore Ottoman
I wasn't talking about big businesses. No, I was pointing out how just because the financiers/builders/designers call it progress does not make it so. As far as I feel they are selling the idea of progress which is ingrained in the minds of Americans as this cultural opium we cannot live without. Progress to me is not simply making the world look safe for democracy. Progress is moving ahead with something that hasn't been thought of yet. This is stewardship. The state of NY needs corporations to keep the streets fresh and clean and bright with new projects but as for curing the squatting, crack dealing, and other derelict sites seen at Coney Island--this renovation of sorts is not going to solve that problem forever. Progress would be finding a way to end reasons for such derelict sites in the first place.

I like that phrase "the only constant is change" but the way you use it is misguided. What else is changing here that people thought the first incarnation of Coney Island would bring?

And stop with the insults. If you fail at logic it should be pointed out, but I know what I'm talking about and at least OPx does too.
Skinny 
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 19 2008, 01:13 PM) [snapback]1465441[/snapback]
I wasn't talking about big businesses. No, I was pointing out how just because the financiers/builders/designers call it progress does not make it so.

If something is remotely less shitty than it was before, it's called progress.

QUOTE
As far as I feel they are selling the idea of progress which is ingrained in the minds of Americans as this cultural opium we cannot live without. Progress to me is not simply making the world look safe for democracy.
No, but making a better amusement park is. It's progress for all involved, business wise, and for the patrons.

QUOTE
Progress is moving ahead with something that hasn't been thought of yet.

...or just making something remotely better.

QUOTE
but as for curing the squatting, crack dealing, and other derelict sites seen at Coney Island--this renovation of sorts is not going to solve that problem forever.

It's not designed to, it's designed to put a better amusement park where there was only a piece of shit, before.
PabloHoneyOle
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 18 2008, 11:13 PM) [snapback]1465441[/snapback]
I wasn't talking about big businesses. No, I was pointing out how just because the financiers/builders/designers call it progress does not make it so. As far as I feel they are selling the idea of progress which is ingrained in the minds of Americans as this cultural opium we cannot live without. Progress to me is not simply making the world look safe for democracy. Progress is moving ahead with something that hasn't been thought of yet. This is stewardship. The state of NY needs corporations to keep the streets fresh and clean and bright with new projects but as for curing the squatting, crack dealing, and other derelict sites seen at Coney Island--this renovation of sorts is not going to solve that problem forever. Progress would be finding a way to end reasons for such derelict sites in the first place.

I like that phrase "the only constant is change" but the way you use it is misguided. What else is changing here that people thought the first incarnation of Coney Island would bring?

And stop with the insults. If you fail at logic it should be pointed out, but I know what I'm talking about and at least OPx does too.

Again, spouting semantics about the 'American cultural opium' and the level democracy associated with Coney Island. Jesus Christ. Call it a renovation, renewal project, or 'stewardship' you want, but the upgrading of shitty locations in high profile cities to make room for new residents, new jobs and new businesses/corporations. I think that is the cultural opium called The American Dream.

You can argue all you want that corporations are evil and everyone is money hungry, but you're just looking at it from a skewed negative light. You feel very strongly about your idealistic convictions, I respect that; but I certainly don't agree. I don't know who you are, your level of education and experience in the 'real world' is; but the one sided view you're presenting appears to be negatively uninformed.

I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation; it appears you don't know much about the history of Coney Island. There have been many amusement parks that have been associated with Coney Island. Luna Park, Steeplechase Park, and Dreamland have all suffered the same fates of Astroland. There have been many owners and developers and each one chose to take Coney Island in a new direction. Some hurt Coney Island by introducing low grade housing or misusing land space inefficiently. Others brought in businesses and residents that has helped shape Coney Island into the historical 'gem' it is now.

No matter which way the developers went, Coney Island has remained exactly what it's first 'incarnation' was: A seaside resort in the one of the largest cities in the US where millions of people come to make memories with their loved ones. Some things have changed, but the traditions, the history and the culture of Coney Island is something that's instilled in the community and something that the corporations will not overlook or destroy in attempt to make a quick dollar.

The historic landmarks; the Cyclone, the Wonder Wheel and the Parachute Drop tower (which hasn't worked in over 50+ years; yet has been fully restored and is treated as a landmark); will serve as a backdrop for a new generation of memories at Coney Island. The rides that are being removed are the parks that are spread out over a large amount of valuable property. That area is going to be restructured to be more efficient in regards to space and yes, economic gain.

It won't stay 'nice and new' forever, "Nothing Gold Can Stay"; decades will pass and crime and deterioration will take it's toll on the 'New Coney Island'. Another developer will step in and buy the property and try to bring RENEWAL and PROGRESS back to Coney Island, it's a never ending cycle: The American Dream; get used to it or move to the rainforests of Fiji.

Right on Skinny..
Hardcore Ottoman
QUOTE(Stoic Person Eater @ Sep 19 2008, 08:39 AM) [snapback]1465466[/snapback]
QUOTE(King Midas Bitch! @ Sep 18 2008, 11:13 PM) [snapback]1465441[/snapback]
I wasn't talking about big businesses. No, I was pointing out how just because the financiers/builders/designers call it progress does not make it so. As far as I feel they are selling the idea of progress which is ingrained in the minds of Americans as this cultural opium we cannot live without. Progress to me is not simply making the world look safe for democracy. Progress is moving ahead with something that hasn't been thought of yet. This is stewardship. The state of NY needs corporations to keep the streets fresh and clean and bright with new projects but as for curing the squatting, crack dealing, and other derelict sites seen at Coney Island--this renovation of sorts is not going to solve that problem forever. Progress would be finding a way to end reasons for such derelict sites in the first place.

I like that phrase "the only constant is change" but the way you use it is misguided. What else is changing here that people thought the first incarnation of Coney Island would bring?

And stop with the insults. If you fail at logic it should be pointed out, but I know what I'm talking about and at least OPx does too.

Again, spouting semantics about the 'American cultural opium' and the level democracy associated with Coney Island. Jesus Christ. Call it a renovation, renewal project, or 'stewardship' you want, but the upgrading of shitty locations in high profile cities to make room for new residents, new jobs and new businesses/corporations. I think that is the cultural opium called The American Dream.
Well, I'm not spouting the semantics on the cultural opium at all. I'm arguing in semantics while talking about this cultural opium called the American Dream.

QUOTE
You can argue all you want that corporations are evil and everyone is money hungry, but you're just looking at it from a skewed negative light. You feel very strongly about your idealistic convictions, I respect that; but I certainly don't agree. I don't know who you are, your level of education and experience in the 'real world' is; but the one sided view you're presenting appears to be negatively uninformed.
I never said I think corporations are like that. In fact, I said we need them. They are necessary to society. I was not being negative. Please, read again.

QUOTE
I don't mean this as an insult, just an observation; it appears you don't know much about the history of Coney Island. There have been many amusement parks that have been associated with Coney Island. Luna Park, Steeplechase Park, and Dreamland have all suffered the same fates of Astroland. There have been many owners and developers and each one chose to take Coney Island in a new direction. Some hurt Coney Island by introducing low grade housing or misusing land space inefficiently. Others brought in businesses and residents that has helped shape Coney Island into the historical 'gem' it is now.
Good observation. I haven't really read up on Coney Island. I went there a couple of times though. Enjoyed it when I was younger.

QUOTE
No matter which way the developers went, Coney Island has remained exactly what it's first 'incarnation' was: A seaside resort in the one of the largest cities in the US where millions of people come to make memories with their loved ones. Some things have changed, but the traditions, the history and the culture of Coney Island is something that's instilled in the community and something that the corporations will not overlook or destroy in attempt to make a quick dollar.
Well, that is not always true but I don't think that happens in most cases. If you think my comment about getting paid was my opinion of the corporate lot; yes, money is one of the factors driving them but... all I meant was that just because they say it is progress and everyone else thinks its progress, I don't think it is so. Progress tends to be a nice news subject and its easier to call it progress than to belittle it by saying it is a necessary action of stewardship of a great relic. I think the remodelling is great. It needs it, but I just don't think it is progress the way you do. That's all. I'm not some smarmy guy trying to win somebody over in semantics.

QUOTE
The historic landmarks; the Cyclone, the Wonder Wheel and the Parachute Drop tower (which hasn't worked in over 50+ years; yet has been fully restored and is treated as a landmark); will serve as a backdrop for a new generation of memories at Coney Island. The rides that are being removed are the parks that are spread out over a large amount of valuable property. That area is going to be restructured to be more efficient in regards to space and yes, economic gain.
That's great. Honestly, I hope in years to come I might build something history will remember as well. I'm a student looking at civil engineering.

QUOTE
It won't stay 'nice and new' forever, "Nothing Gold Can Stay"; decades will pass and crime and deterioration will take it's toll on the 'New Coney Island'. Another developer will step in and buy the property and try to bring RENEWAL and PROGRESS back to Coney Island, it's a never ending cycle: The American Dream; get used to it or move to the rainforests of Fiji.
You know my opinion on this matter. Nothing more will be argued.
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