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Bain
Iraqi Army to Ditch AK-47s for M-16s
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world, American military officials in Baghdad have begun a crash program to outfit the entire Iraqi army with M-16 rifles. The initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a symbol of revolutionary zeal and third-world simplicity that is ubiquitous among the militaries of the Middle East.

"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who's in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.

"The Iraqis have embraced that ... and the fact that it is U.S. manufactured and supplied. They are very big on U.S.-produced [foreign military sales] materials," he said in an interview with military bloggers this month.

So far, the U.S. military has helped the Iraqi army purchase 43,000 rifles - a mix of full-stock M-16A2s and compact M-4 carbines. Another 50,000 rifles are currently on order, and the objective is to outfit the entire Iraqi army with 165,000 American rifles in a one-for-one replacement of the AK-47.

"Our goal is to give every Iraqi soldier an M-16A2 or an M-4," Scott said. "And as the Iraqi army grows, we will adjust."

Scott added the mass of AK-47s from various manufacturers floating through the Iraqi army's inventory could cause maintenance and reliability problems. Getting both U.S. and Iraqi forces on the same page when it comes to basic weaponry is part of the argument for M-16 outfitting.

"I'm also a fan of AKs," Scott said. "But keep in mind most of these AKs have been sitting around in bunkers or whatnot for 30 or 40 years [and] are in various stages of disrepair."

A variety of U.S. troops, including SEALs, Marines and Soldiers - and even civilian contractors - are training Iraqis on the M-16 and M-4 throughout the country. One civilian trainer told Military.com during a brief interview in Iraq that the Iraqi soldiers are a little behind the average American trooper when it comes to learning the various parts and breakdown of the M-16, but they're enthusiastic and quick learners on the range.

After seeing some of the firing range training himself, Scott added that he "asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate ... and more reliable."

"I think the transition is almost transparent from those older AKs," he said.

A system that registers each rifle with the individual who receives it using biometric data such as thumb prints and eye scans is meant to address concerns over U.S. weapons winding up in enemy hands. A July 2007 Government Accountability Office report concluded that as many as 190,000 weapons delivered to the Iraqi army were not accounted for and could've wound up in terrorist caches.

That's something Scott isn't going to allow on his watch.

"These Iraqi soldiers know that this weapon becomes part of their person," he said. "And they also know that they are responsible and accountable for that weapon."

And from the looks of it, Iraqi soldiers aren't willing to hand them over to the bad guys.

"Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy," said Capt. Rafaat Mejal Ahmed, the Iraqi 1st Division weapons and ammunition officer, in a Marine Corps release. "They think the modern technology will make them more powerful."









I just thought it was interesting.....


Mekstizzle
From what I've seen, it's a whole lot more accurate. So good on them, I suppose.

Bain, you fired one yet? What's it like?
Bain
Hell yeah. Thats all we fired. Its pretty cool.....Im bout to leave my house, Ill edit and post a more detailed explanation later.
Marneyo Juano
How cute, they're trying to show AK-47 as pre-historic pieces of junk.
The thing is that many soldiers trade their M-16s for AKs. They might be less accurate, but they are more powerful and can take much worse conditions than the M16 and still function. M16 more durable than AK? hah, I don't think so.
TwoFacedTanner
Why are they wearing our old uniforms?
Marneyo Juano
because they use EVERYTHING old, they can't afford new stuff.
Mekstizzle
QUOTE(ProbleMatiK @ Feb 28 2008, 11:25 PM) [snapback]1396638[/snapback]
because they use EVERYTHING old, they can't afford new stuff.

The U.S is putting a ridiculous amount of money into the Iraqi Military, they're probably new
Marneyo Juano
well I guess most of the money probably goes for wages, training, re-building old facilities, modernisation of old training camps, etc. It would take a long time to fix all the major things and let the money go to smaller things like uniform and weapons.
Bain
QUOTE(Mek-Izzle @ Feb 28 2008, 09:48 AM) [snapback]1396559[/snapback]
From what I've seen, it's a whole lot more accurate. So good on them, I suppose.

Bain, you fired one yet? What's it like?




It has a tiny amount of recoil. What we did in boot camp is fired for 5 days I believe. in the sitting, kneeling, and standing position from the 200 yard line, the kneeling, sitting, and prone from the 300 yard line, and the prone from the 500 yard line.

Each hit in the black is 5 points, 4, 3, and 2 ring. Then a miss.

We qualified by shooting 15 minutes from the 200, 5 rounds from each position, then I think a rapid fire (10 rounds, 60 seconds, starting standing up then getting in position ASAP), then same shit at 300 yard line, then 15 minutes for 10 rounds prone at the 500 yard line.


The best we can get is expert, second best is sharpshooter, then just marksmen. I missed expert by 5 points.

Theres a morning relay, then afternoon. I was at like 5 am and it was cold as fuck. Then the shooting coaches say they dont understand why all the afternoon relays shoot better............go figure.

Anyway, I didnt do too badly. Then, we had some minor combat shooting 2 more days.

We shot targets at 20 yards, doing things like head shots, 2 in the chest, 1 in the groin, a controlled pair in the chest all within like 3-10 secods depending, then we shot moving targets at 100 yards.

That was funny, because the first real week, the slow fire shit, we had like 45 minutes for all our 70 shots or so, and the combat shooting we would get rid of like 125 rounds in like 1/3 the time basically.

Then we shot a few other times small shit.

Throughout boot camp we probably got like 500-750 rounds.

We shot at an Able target from 200 meters (head shaped) a dog target from 300 (guy in prone position) and a b modified from 500 (mans torso and head).
Mekstizzle
QUOTE
The best we can get is expert, second best is sharpshooter, then just marksmen. I missed expert by 5 points.


Oh don't worry man, you know, it was totally probably just a freak gust of wind or something.

lol, but yeah, that's cool man. Those are some pretty big distances to fire from too
I Made Your Mom In GMod
QUOTE(Devil Dog @ Feb 28 2008, 02:54 PM) [snapback]1396550[/snapback]
"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable," said Army Col. Stephen Scott, who's in charge of helping the Iraqi army get all the equipment it needs to outfit its forces.

Hahahahah. What.
If they were replacing them with HK416s then perhaps this wouldn't seem like such a moronic idea.
Bain
QUOTE(Mek-Izzle @ Feb 28 2008, 06:54 PM) [snapback]1396668[/snapback]
QUOTE
The best we can get is expert, second best is sharpshooter, then just marksmen. I missed expert by 5 points.


Oh don't worry man, you know, it was totally probably just a freak gust of wind or something.

lol, but yeah, that's cool man. Those are some pretty big distances to fire from too


It doesnt matter towards your promotion until corporal anyway so I can get expert next year, or the next year, before it matters.....

Here's my medal for sharpshooter:



Iron Cross
Bitch Heartless
ON TOPIC:It's about time!

OFF TOPIC: I can't wait to shoot that M-16!
Bain
The range smells so fucking good after a bunch of M-16s have been firing all morning.
Bitch Heartless
QUOTE(Devil Dog @ Feb 28 2008, 08:08 PM) [snapback]1396698[/snapback]
The range smells so fucking good after a bunch of M-16s have been firing all morning.


STOP!!

*Masterbates*







































You guys shot other guns to right?
Bain
Nope. We just got the M-16. But in the next 22 days of training at Marine Combat Training in Pendleton we will use grenades, the Saw, the Mark 20 possibly, and something else.

Then we finish that training with a makeshift Iraqi town and people dressed in turbans and shit.
Caliph
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!
psychÝ
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!

To be honest the whole article is a joke from a completely bias source.
TwoFacedTanner
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!


And most third world countries!
But the M-16 isn't that bad. It's more manly than the M4.

M16=Whopper

M4=Whopper Junior
Severus Snape
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Feb 29 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1396831[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!

To be honest the whole article is a joke from a completely bias source.


Not to try and shit on your riff here, but can you back that statement up? I will admit that the military puts a spin on the things it does so that they appear in the best light to us non-military citizens. But do you have proof that it's a joke, and that the writer is completely biased? You always claim to know everything, and you always say that you can quote dozens of sources on every topic.

So, well, where's the proof?
Hardcore Ottoman
He doesn't need sources, he will be writing history books in a couple years...
psychÝ
QUOTE(Arch Angel @ Feb 29 2008, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1396853[/snapback]
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Feb 29 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1396831[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!

To be honest the whole article is a joke from a completely bias source.


Not to try and shit on your riff here, but can you back that statement up? I will admit that the military puts a spin on the things it does so that they appear in the best light to us non-military citizens. But do you have proof that it's a joke, and that the writer is completely biased? You always claim to know everything, and you always say that you can quote dozens of sources on every topic.

So, well, where's the proof?


QUOTE
it's more durable
There.

QUOTE
The Iraqis have embraced that ... and the fact that it is U.S. manufactured and supplied.
Cause all Iraqi's love the US manufacturing industry, despite the fact pretty much no solider in the Iraqi army could tell you anything about it, I mean damn most Americans couldn't.

QUOTE
"asked the Iraqis how they liked the weapon and they said it was far superior, it was more accurate ... and more reliable.
So they know the gun that that have just been given on the firing range is more reliable than one they have used all there lives, despite the AK47 being an extremely reliable gun cause it has fuck all to go wrong.

QUOTE

And from the looks of it, Iraqi soldiers aren't willing to hand them over to the bad guys.
Cause last time I handed my weapons cache over to a terrorist group I did it in front of the American army, while they were still training me with it.

It is just common sense.

QUOTE
He doesn't need sources, he will be writing history books in a couple years...
I don't even study history?
AVaholic
QUOTE(TwoFacedTanner @ Feb 29 2008, 12:58 PM) [snapback]1396832[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!


And most third world countries!
But the M-16 isn't that bad. It's more manly than the M4.

M16=Whopper

M4=Whopper Junior


What the fuck makes one gun more manly than another, that's the stupidest shit i've read today. theyre essentially the same rifle, with the m-4 being shorter, they fire the same ammuntion, and have the same design based off eugene stoner's original concept ar-10
to say one is more manly is retarded.
the article is probably pretty biased, i bet the unis they have are new, just with our older (cheaper to produce than the new digital ones) camo pattern
it's pretty obvious why theyre doing this...the iraqi gov't is paying out cash to american arms manufacturers, both for guns and bullets, not to mention theyre paying us for tanks, bombs, rifles, unis, all that shit they have now, in case you were late, the whole iraq war was and is all about money..see; haliburton: stock
on a lighter note, i nearly purchased an ar15 this past weekend, made by bushmaster...helluva weapon system
now that i think of it it seems logical on the dependability side of the article, if they use all ages of aks, made in different factorys at different times with defferent parts, it'd be a bitch to keep spare parts in stock, if they use our uniform weapon system, all that shit is available and compatable with any weapon they use
Marneyo Juano
Well, one thing to show that this article is nothing more than propaganda on good America influence in Iraq, is this:
QUOTE
he initiative marks a sharp break for a culture steeped in the traditions of the Soviet-era AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifle, a symbol of revolutionary zeal and third-world simplicity
QUOTE
"We in the U.S. know that the M-16 is superior to the AK ... it's more durable,"

QUOTE
Scott added the mass of AK-47s from various manufacturers floating through the Iraqi army's inventory could cause maintenance and reliability problems.
QUOTE
"Most of the soldiers think they will be just like the Americans, and that is making them very happy,"


Between all the pretty words around, it all sums up to a fairytale on how russian weapons are unrealiable, backwards, are expensive in maintenance and people everywhere all around the world love Americans and want to be just like them.
Which is, ofcourse bullshit. Cheap propaganda.
Caliph
QUOTE(Arch Angel @ Mar 1 2008, 12:20 AM) [snapback]1396853[/snapback]
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Feb 29 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1396831[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!

To be honest the whole article is a joke from a completely bias source.


Not to try and shit on your riff here, but can you back that statement up? I will admit that the military puts a spin on the things it does so that they appear in the best light to us non-military citizens. But do you have proof that it's a joke, and that the writer is completely biased? You always claim to know everything, and you always say that you can quote dozens of sources on every topic.

So, well, where's the proof?

Proof? First of all, if you want to prove something you should back it up with sources or references. But those things which you prove cannot be proven without the need of sources. You dont prove someone's bias by going to sources lol, its right there starting at 'ya. The article is in itself biased, any person would realise it right from the first freaking sentence.
Marneyo Juano
QUOTE(Caliph @ Mar 1 2008, 01:11 PM) [snapback]1397033[/snapback]
QUOTE(Arch Angel @ Mar 1 2008, 12:20 AM) [snapback]1396853[/snapback]
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Feb 29 2008, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1396831[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 07:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!

To be honest the whole article is a joke from a completely bias source.


Not to try and shit on your riff here, but can you back that statement up? I will admit that the military puts a spin on the things it does so that they appear in the best light to us non-military citizens. But do you have proof that it's a joke, and that the writer is completely biased? You always claim to know everything, and you always say that you can quote dozens of sources on every topic.

So, well, where's the proof?

Proof? First of all, if you want to prove something you should back it up with sources or references. But those things which you prove cannot be proven without the need of sources. You dont prove someone's bias by going to sources lol, its right there starting at 'ya. The article is in itself biased, any person would realise it right from the first freaking sentence.

except for brainwashed americans and some pro-americans around the world who blindly believe whatever they're told about their favourite, allmighty country's achievements and influences. Makes them feel so proud of themselves, and so patriotic.
Ryanardo
Seriously who cares one little bit what gun who is using

Americans make me laugh
TwoFacedTanner
QUOTE(AVaholic @ Feb 29 2008, 10:16 PM) [snapback]1396953[/snapback]
QUOTE(TwoFacedTanner @ Feb 29 2008, 12:58 PM) [snapback]1396832[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!


And most third world countries!
But the M-16 isn't that bad. It's more manly than the M4.

M16=Whopper

M4=Whopper Junior


What the fuck makes one gun more manly than another, that's the stupidest shit i've read today. theyre essentially the same rifle, with the m-4 being shorter, they fire the same ammuntion, and have the same design based off eugene stoner's original concept ar-10
to say one is more manly is retarded.


Chill you fuck head. I swear no one can have a little fun on this site without some jackass taking every fucking thing seriously.

I was making a reference to the sizes of the two guns, the larger one making you look more manly than carrying around a smaller rifle.
AVaholic
QUOTE(TwoFacedTanner @ Mar 13 2008, 08:08 AM) [snapback]1398943[/snapback]
QUOTE(AVaholic @ Feb 29 2008, 10:16 PM) [snapback]1396953[/snapback]
QUOTE(TwoFacedTanner @ Feb 29 2008, 12:58 PM) [snapback]1396832[/snapback]
QUOTE(Caliph @ Feb 29 2008, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1396829[/snapback]
QUOTE
In a move that could be the most enduring imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world,


Pfft, give me a break! The only imprint of U.S. influence in the Arab world belongs to governments or regimes that are basically puppets to the Americans. I'm not surprised the Iraqis adopted M-16s, I thought they did all along. The AK-47, despite its Soviet antiquity, became synonymous to most Arab and Islamic regimes. In fact, some even go as far as calling it "the local gun". M-16... pfft!


And most third world countries!
But the M-16 isn't that bad. It's more manly than the M4.

M16=Whopper

M4=Whopper Junior


What the fuck makes one gun more manly than another, that's the stupidest shit i've read today. theyre essentially the same rifle, with the m-4 being shorter, they fire the same ammuntion, and have the same design based off eugene stoner's original concept ar-10
to say one is more manly is retarded.


Chill you fuck head. I swear no one can have a little fun on this site without some jackass taking every fucking thing seriously.

I was making a reference to the sizes of the two guns, the larger one making you look more manly than carrying around a smaller rifle.

i'm trying to see things your way but i can't shove my head that far up my ass
the m16 is a whole 10% larger than the m4. wow. the only difference is the barrel length..
theyre virtually the same size, same weapon.. and same ammo
how does one measure manliness in a firearm?
TwoFacedTanner
sleep.gif


Are you sure you cant stick your head that far up your ass?
This is the last time I'm going to say this.
It was a joke. A small, corny, joke.

I could care less about the damn guns.
I was just saying, the larger of the two would look more manly.
How? Because its bigger. Bigger things look tougher. I don't care if its only a slight difference, I want you to get it through your head that it was a joke.
In the future I'll try to refrain from saying anything jokingly or sarcastic around you.
Samurai_tbag
QUOTE(ProbleMatiK @ Feb 28 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1396571[/snapback]
How cute, they're trying to show AK-47 as pre-historic pieces of junk.
The thing is that many soldiers trade their M-16s for AKs.

I heard about that.

AK's can be buried in the sand and fall in the water and still work fine.

Also, AK's on single fire can be just as accurate as an M16.

It's all about the L85 now though.
FailSafe
QUOTE(ProbleMatiK @ Feb 28 2008, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1396571[/snapback]
How cute, they're trying to show AK-47 as pre-historic pieces of junk.
The thing is that many soldiers trade their M-16s for AKs. They might be less accurate, but they are more powerful and can take much worse conditions than the M16 and still function. M16 more durable than AK? hah, I don't think so.



Well you are kinda right but the M16 has a special kind of ammunition which is light and soft at the front so i fragments on impact doing more damage then a 7.62 round. But really the AK round has loads more pentration and would be more useful in a Urban Warfare like shooting an Insurgent through a door or wall.

I vote AK-47 to stay.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

M16- More accurate, Less recoil, Bullet has greater range.

AK-47- More Powerful, More rugged, More reliable.

As was said by 'nam soldiers "We ditched our M-16 in a muddy and wet environment for a AK"

It should also be said that Ammunution should be easier to get for an AK.
Marneyo Juano
Well the M16 was made and then improved ages after the AK47 was developed, and ofcourse it would be better because more modern and advanced technologies were used in it's creation. But since then, the AK had passed many improvements and modifications that the americans seem to forget about and compare the M16s to the oldest, very first model of the AK series, because obviously that's so much more convenient to make your weapon look great. And even in that comparisson, the AK47 seems to be overall better than the M16.
See: AK103, AK107/108
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