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Sanshiro
Alright, so this is a continuation of the debate that occurred in Vendetta's "Death" topic. I will try to be simple and to the point, because I know some people do not bother to discuss these types of "Big Questions" as they call them. I'm a free thinker, and I respect anyone who thinks freely and reasons every thought he adopts. I do not like people who follow beliefs and opinions blindly just because their parents/peers support those beliefs or ideas. Therefore, denying the existence of god is a sign that a person has tried to reason and find an evidence for such statement, which is a healthy step, I think.

For me to answer the topic's question, yes, I personally believe God exists. I've asked myself this same question three years back, and after reading, thinking, and experiencing life, I came to the answer: yes. I would like you to reflect on the following points, please:

1) Cause and Effect:

We all agree that for every action, be it tiny or huge, there is always a cause, a reason why that action took place. You are here, because your mom gave birth to you. You eat because if you don't you'll die. You play videogames because you want to have fun. If a new machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before is shown to any person, then we ask him: "who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?" After little bit of thinking, he will reply: "the creator of that object." Some may say "the producer" or "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, you name it, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.

2) Hierarchy:

Just look around you, everything in life is ranked and has something/someone that has the authority above it/him. The father above son, the manager above employees, the president above his nation, the teacher above his students, the Sun above the Milky-Way planets, and etc. This hierarchy system guarantees the existence of life, because without it there to be chaos, war, and doom of mankind. Therefore, there must be a "boss" for this whole universe.

3) History:

We all read in history about prophets like Noah, Abraham, Jesus, David, Jacob, Muhammad, Joseph, and so on. We read about their books that were revealed to them by God, as they claimed. We read about the countless billions people who followed them through all these centuries. These information, where did it came from? You might say: "Someone invented those lies." But how come billions of people are following and believing the same lies? Are all historians since Noah that dumb to keep passing such never-happened events? This is like denying the fact that earth is sphere-shaped by throwing all scientists space photos and theories in the garbage can. The probability of denial against that of acceptance is very weak.

4) Perfect Universe:

Everything in this world is connected as we all studied and experience in our daily lives. Everything seems to be doing its "assigned" job. The sun shines every morning at a certain time, moves through its arc in the sky, then sets. It has a certain distance from the earth which if increased or decreased a bit we all would burn, as scientists say. There is Day for going to work and doing activities, and there is Night for sleep and rest. Night is dark and calm to help us sleep and rest. The human body, just look at it. Every bone, muscle, cell, and so on, has a certain job. Why does a pet bury its waste? Who taught it that? Why do animals that live in cold areas have thick fur?

If I tell an atheist or any person that my cat jumped into my keyboard yesterday and started to write a letter to me with perfect grammar, would he believe it? Of course not, because if he does, he is biologically insane. The same thing is with this universe, if such person doesn't believe this small story of my pet, how come he believes that this whole universe came from nowhere or by chance? I once read somewhere an old story of two philosophers who were discussing the existence of god. They agreed to meet at some place where people can gather and watch. The atheist philosopher arrived first, but the one who believes in god was intentionally late. After hours, he showed up. The atheist asked him: "Where have you been all this time?" He replied: "Well, I didn't find any boat to cross the river so I waited for a while until I saw some floating wood sticks on the river gathered in front of me and arranged themselves rapidly to create this beautiful boat which allowed me to cross the river. So here I am." The atheist philosopher said: "Did you hear that people? This man is insane! How would a boat creates itself without a carpenter?" The believer philosopher said: "Look at you, you don't believe that a small boat was created without a carpenter, yet you believe this whole world has no creator?" The atheist philosopher was stunned in silence, and the debate was over.

----------------------------------------------------


To conclude, was a person, who denies the existence of god, created from nothing? Did this person create himself? Did he create this world? Just think of it. I've found that denying the existence of god is just an attitude and nothing more. I mean look at people when they face hardships, they say it from their hearts: "Oh my God!" Look at them when their airplane is about to crash, when they lose a loved one... The funny thing is that even atheists say: "Oh my God!" which could be hinting them to something. I've found that proving the existence of god needs simple thinking and use of common sense and intuition. I think it's already a built-in feature in our innate selves when we were born. Ask children, and see their answers. It's only when we try to depend entirely on our intellects or raw senses that a clash occurs. Not all that we perceive by our five senses is only true. If I told a medieval guy about cell phones, airplanes, Playstations, iPods... etc, he would definitely say I am crazy, and probably would kill me. Why? Because he used his senses only as a support. I'm just trying to say we cannot depend entirely on our senses or intellects, sometimes. The intellect has "no personality" as Einstein said.

Believing in the existence of god doesn't mean opposing science, because studying science makes me more aware of how this world is engineered and perfectly designed to its smallest bits. Only a false religion, belief, or weak knowledge of science would deny the existence of god, and as the famous philosopher Francis Bacon said: "A little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God." Therefore, If you deny god, you're denying false models of god, but not God.

From what I read and experience, I firmly believe that God does exist. I believe there is only one God, not two, not three. I believe Jesus was a prophet of God, but NOT a god himself, neither a son of God. I believe the only God has perfect qualities and attributes unlike human beings. I believe He is above. I believe there were prophets sent by God. The concept of Paradise and Hell seems logical. There does exist a "Judgment Day."

Discuss. Post your opinions.
Iced Coke
No. He was created by religion to give us someone to believe in. Well theres no one, we have ourselves to blame, and thats it.
coreyko_2003
QUOTE(Lysdexic Beykoard @ Dec 28 2006, 01:32 PM) [snapback]1275092[/snapback]

No. He was created by religion to give us someone to believe in. Well theres no one, we have ourselves to blame, and thats it.


.........and from that comment you made you'll've started a huge looping argument where no one wins sleep.gif
Bag Of Puppies
So the quistion is does god exit?

Well yeah of course, I just saw he walking out that door over there... *points biggrin.gif



but err... I'm gonna asume your actual quistion is wheter or not god exists. My answer to that is No. There is no godlike person of any kind, no-one is watching over us from the skies, the earth was created from a couple of big rocks that clumped together and all organisms including humans where created trough evolution.

There is however something I do think of god and that are values and morals, that sort of thing, being good to people and all that. That's what it's all about isn't it?
Indy
I think that God is probably our conscience. I love science and so I can't help but doubt the existance of God. Though at the end of the day people such as Jesus and prophets all kinda teach the same thing. As I may not believe in God, I do believe in equality and many of the teachings of such people.
Sanshiro
So we came from nowhere? This is illogical.

QUOTE(Bag Of Puppies @ Dec 28 2006, 10:48 PM) [snapback]1275096[/snapback]

the earth was created from a couple of big rocks that clumped together and all organisms including humans where created trough evolution.

And who did that? Don't tell me by chance, cause I'm not gonna believe you. sleep.gif

QUOTE(Lysdexic Beykoard @ Dec 28 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]1275092[/snapback]

No. He was created by religion to give us someone to believe in. Well theres no one, we have ourselves to blame, and thats it.

What do you mean 'created by religion'? Please explain.
psychÝ
QUOTE

QUOTE(Bag Of Puppies @ Dec 28 2006, 10:48 PM) [snapback]1275096[/snapback]

the earth was created from a couple of big rocks that clumped together and all organisms including humans where created trough evolution.

And who did that? Don't tell me by chance, cause I'm not gonna believe you. sleep.gif

Chaos theory, selection pressures, gravity, the laws of physics did.

QUOTE(Lysdexic Beykoard @ Dec 28 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]1275092[/snapback]
QUOTE

No. He was created by religion to give us someone to believe in. Well theres no one, we have ourselves to blame, and thats it.

What do you mean 'created by religion'? Please explain.

Exactly what he said, exactly the same as santa is created by your parents.

God was created to make people fear, if people live in fear then they are easier to control, and therefore someone gains more power and therefore they can say they are a member of gods crowd and get people to praise them as a god gaining more power.

Pretty damn simple, it is idiotic to believe in god, I mean really you have to be stupid or just ignorant.

Let see, who created god?

The retarded answer I always hear, he was always there, why couldn't the universe always be here, there is no need for god, the universe isn't some red tape filled crap with people put in just so they can have a job, the universe has no unemployment targets.

The whole idea of god was created to make people feel like they are worth something, this works because people would rather hear they are special than an irrelivent group of atoms and molecules in a vast soup of atoms and molecules.


And what are you chatting about in your first post, the whole universe is based apoint chaos theory and the fact that if exactly the same begining happened a different ending would occur because of the random movement of subatomic particals shown in chaos theory, so I don't agree every cause doesn't have an effect.

2) Hierarchy - lol that is a joke to, since when did they universe have levels, humans have put them into levels, for one you would most likely put a bigger star as better than a smaller one putting it on a higher level when in reality it just burns it fuel quicker.

A galaxy is jsut a group of stars, a solar system is a group of planets, they arn't better or worse they are just bigger and smaller.

Hierachies just exist because people can't work together and people need to be told what to do, and it is easier that way to section groups off to do different tasks.

Who are really better the trillions and trillions of bacteria who are all over the earth, or the very few humans who are still killed by bacteria everyday, yet are by your standards so much better.

3) - Yay, some human wrote a book, woop tee do, there are plenty of books about fariy's, do hobbits exist because someone wrote the lord of the rings?

4) -How is the universe perfect, it is far from it, how do you even define perfect, it is an opinion, some emo might think it would be perfect if the world just destroyed itself, what is perfect is an opinion and therefore it can't be perfect.

Oh and going on about why there is life on earth, the laws of probability sum that up in one, give something enough goes in different environments and one time it will work.
House
I think God was created by the people back thousands of years ago. Or maybe some Emperor created God to keep his people in place saying he'd kill them wouldn't work because all of them against him he had to create someone higher and powerful than himself. Meh it's just waht I think.

Get Inda Car HO 69
"God" was created by the Christians and other religions to keep their followers in check.

For example: Some Christian guy is pointing a gun at a midget, he's thinking, should he do this? God is watching him and he might go to hell. So the guy doesn't cap the midget.

In closing, honestly God does not exist....probably.

Bain
Not only is there no proof, it just plainly doesnt make sense.

Until Jesus shows up at my door in a pirate outfit, with some hot sluts, beef jerky, and rum, then I dont believe any of this fairy tale shit.
Qdeathstar
I really dont care for the whole argument. I'm athiest, and thats good enough for me. Im not going to try to persuade any non-athiest that im right, because it just wont serve any purpose... cept to piss both of us off.


Secondly..

QUOTE

1) Cause and Effect:

We all agree that for every action, be it tiny or huge, there is always a cause, a reason why that action took place. You are here, because your mom gave birth to you. You eat because if you don't you'll die. You play videogames because you want to have fun. If a new machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before is shown to any person, then we ask him: "who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?" After little bit of thinking, he will reply: "the creator of that object." Some may say "the producer" or "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, you name it, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.


Sure, everything happens for a reason. That doenst mean the reason was important, or even that if that one 'event' never took place the future would change considerably. For Instance, I move a cup. The reason i moved the cup was because i wanted to move the cup. However, who cares. Will the outcome of tomorrow be any different that it would have been had i not moved it, unlikely.

The Second part of your argument is.. poor. Your saying that all things have been created, because all machines are created. Circular Reasoning?. In the specific instance of manufacturing machines there may be a creator, but not in the not necessarily the formation of the sun. No one had to "create" the sun, but someone did "create" the toaster. It doesnt prove anything. Its just a statement.


QUOTE

2) Hierarchy:

Just look around you, everything in life is ranked and has something/someone that has the authority above it/him. The father above son, the manager above employees, the president above his nation, the teacher above his students, the Sun above the Milky-Way planets, and etc. This hierarchy system guarantees the existence of life, because without it there to be chaos, war, and doom of mankind. Therefore, there must be a "boss" for this whole universe.


Or... one could argue that Hierarchy was CREATED by man, and only then did he "group" these things in to supperficial catagories. Secondly, just because their is a certain order to something, (one comes before two) doenst mean there is a God. One obviously before two, but you would say, ahah, one is the boss of two? Would you?

QUOTE

3) History:

We all read in history about prophets like Noah, Abraham, Jesus, David, Jacob, Muhammad, Joseph, and so on. We read about their books that were revealed to them by God, as they claimed. We read about the countless billions people who followed them through all these centuries. These information, where did it came from? You might say: "Someone invented those lies." But how come billions of people are following and believing the same lies? Are all historians since Noah that dumb to keep passing such never-happened events? This is like denying the fact that earth is sphere-shaped by throwing all scientists space photos and theories in the garbage can. The probability of denial against that of acceptance is very weak.


We are all human, we all have a subliminal urge to "feel" safe, A Superficial Superhuman who loves us? Well, with that kinda of support, all humans could easily feel safe. Besides that, just because Jesus, or Mohammed, Moses, just because they existed (which I agree they did), does not prove that god exists. There is the old argument that they might have been aliens XD but i think a more accurate description of them would be to compare them to Gandhi or Reagan. Once the world fell into the black ages, (feudal system/waring states) education suffered greatly and if all you are taught is god, its increasingly easy to believe in him. (If you look at history, the greatest times of the church were the weakest times of the state)

QUOTE

Everything in this world is connected as we all studied and experience in our daily lives. Everything seems to be doing its "assigned" job. The sun shines every morning at a certain time, moves through its arc in the sky, then sets. It has a certain distance from the earth which if increased or decreased a bit we all would burn, as scientists say. There is Day for going to work and doing activities, and there is Night for sleep and rest. Night is dark and calm to help us sleep and rest. The human body, just look at it. Every bone, muscle, cell, and so on, has a certain job. Why does a pet bury its waste? Who taught it that? Why do animals that live in cold areas have thick fur?


Ever heard of Natural selection and Evolution, or did they NOT teach you that in mississippi?

Of course the sun shines, but the universe is far from perfect. For instance, we see all the time stars collasping on themselves, swolling up surrounding planets as well. Guess what, OUR SUN IS A STAR. So much for perfect universe :-/.

QUOTE

A little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God." Therefore, If you deny god, you're denying false models of god, but not God.


I guess that would depend on what your meaning of God is. ... If God is not a concious being, but instead a force, then its God is just another name for gravity.... and then who cares.


QUOTE

The atheist asked him: "Where have you been all this time?" He replied: "Well, I didn't find any boat to cross the river so I waited for a while until I saw some floating wood sticks on the river gathered in front of me and arranged themselves rapidly to create this beautiful boat which allowed me to cross the river. So here I am." The atheist philosopher said: "Did you hear that people? This man is insane! How would a boat creates itself without a carpenter?" The believer philosopher said: "Look at you, you don't believe that a small boat was created without a carpenter, yet you believe this whole world has no creator?" The atheist philosopher was stunned in silence, and the debate was over.


That philosopher was an idiot then. Have you ever watched two philosphers ... debate? They will go on and on, and make up counterpoints THAT ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO REALITY, before excepting defeat. Secondly, it would have been so easy for the the athiest philospher to claim FALSE ANALOGY. Comparing somethign Created by Man to something "supposedly" Created by God...


QUOTE

I'm just trying to say we cannot depend entirely on our senses or intellects, sometimes.


When, outside of having the "faith" to believe in god, is this a good option?


More Interesting Questions:

If the Devil is the Ultimate Deciever, how can we be certain that the God we know isnt actually the devil, Deceiving us into worshiping him?

If God is all loving, why would he want his children to suffer needlessly. Often without giving them a chance to "learn" from their mistakes?

Austin
I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.


Atheists generally seem to be a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spend 90% of their time slagging off Christianity and are unable to put up a decent argument against the existence of a creator/god.


How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.


When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error".

In fact chaos theory as an explanation is the weakest argument I've ever heard. Evolution is pretty weak to some degree also.. I'll take humans as an example. If we evolved from apes.. shouldn't there be countless and I mean millions of "in-between" creatures.. going through from ape to human seen as evolution doesn't happen overnight. Yet where is the evidence of this? There is very little.

If science is the only law then how do you explain ghosts.. spirit mediums.. the supernatural in general? Wait, I know how you explain it.. you dismiss people who see ghosts as liars or mental cases and the same basically goes for spirit mediums.


I think Atheists are generally unimaginative, ignorant, and very cold people. You're hard pushed to find a great atheist or a creative one. From my experience most of them seem to be ex-Christians who've decided organised religion is a load of shit and therefore no god exists full stop. I suggest trying to separate believing in a religion to believing in a god.

Agnostic is probably the safest bet.. no one has the answers, and pretending that you understand is just arrogance at its extreme.

I can't be bothered to proof read what I just typed so I hope it doesn't sound too rantish or dumb.

Bain
Just to reply to Shanshoozie's post in the other topic:

QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 27 2006, 11:23 AM) [snapback]1274634[/snapback]

QUOTE(Nationalist Bain @ Dec 27 2006, 04:53 AM) [snapback]1274462[/snapback]

There is no god.
Fixed.

Any proofs? Supports?



I would ask you the same questions about your god.

No, there is no proof, but in this argument, you are asking if God exists? He hasnt shown it yet if he does.

Therefore, the burden is on his ass.

And sorry, but I had to:
IPB Image

IPB Image

I just fucking had to.


QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 01:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.


Atheists generally seem to be a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spend 90% of their time slagging off Christianity and are unable to put up a decent argument against the existence of a creator/god.


How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.



DUN....................... DUN.............................. DUN, DUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN.








DUN......................................DEH DEH DEH DEH DEEEHEHHHHHHH!!!!!:
IPB Image


Click.
DuPz0r
Oh not one of these topics again >_<

In my opinion though, god is what psychÝ said above.
Styl
Ohhhh....

Another religion argument?

God may not exit, but Styl sure as hell will.

smile.gif
Qdeathstar
QUOTE
I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.


Atheists generally seem to be a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spend 90% of their time slagging off Christianity and are unable to put up a decent argument against the existence of a creator/god.


How funny, it seems that before you posted your opinionated pile of crap, you hadnt bothered to read the posts written before hand. Perhaps if you had of had a bit of a more open mind, you could have came up with a better responce. But just like most religious people, you got the drakonian drowned out moan of "im right your wrong"...

QUOTE


How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.


The argument that the universe appeard out of nowhere is no more bizzare than the argument that God appeared out of no where.... is it? If god was "always there" its more than safe to say that the "universe" could always be there to. It isnt about being stupid, unless your talking American Christianity, anyway.

QUOTE

When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error".


not trial and error, natural selection. There is a differecne.

QUOTE

In fact chaos theory as an explanation is the weakest argument I've ever heard.


why?

QUOTE

Evolution is pretty weak to some degree also.. I'll take humans as an example. If we evolved from apes.. shouldn't there be countless and I mean millions of "in-between" creatures.. going through from ape to human seen as evolution doesn't happen overnight. Yet where is the evidence of this? There is very little.


Cro Magnum, ect? Plus, fossilization doesnt "automatically" happen. For example, it is estimated that 90% of the entire earth geom that was once living is now dead without a fossile.

QUOTE

If science is the only law then how do you explain ghosts.. spirit mediums.. the supernatural in general? Wait, I know how you explain it.. you dismiss people who see ghosts as liars or mental cases and the same basically goes for spirit mediums.


Ghosts and god are completely difference, and science is not a law, it is a theory, which as some laws. Secondly, your assumption that everyone agrees that ghosts exist, is faulty.

QUOTE

I think Atheists are generally unimaginative, ignorant, and very cold people. You're hard pushed to find a great atheist or a creative one. From my experience most of them seem to be ex-Christians who've decided organised religion is a load of shit and therefore no god exists full stop. I suggest trying to separate believing in a religion to believing in a god.


heh.

QUOTE

Agnostic is probably the safest bet.. no one has the answers, and pretending that you understand is just arrogance at its extreme.


So, then all religious people are arrogant to. Because anyone pretending there is a god is pretending they understand? Secondly, just because you dont have the will power to make a logical choice based on presented evidence doesnt make you any better than anyone else. It makes you one of those pathetic souls who picks the "winning" side.

Handsome B Wonderful
I'm an atheist. Maybe i'd consider the notion that the concept of a god creating everything was plausible if there was a greater explanation of how it was done.

QUOTE
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Fucking in depth stuff right there. I've seen instructions on how to bake a cake that were more detailed than that. And if we have command over every living thing, why do we still get owned by parasites? Also, if he created man in his own image, how come we don't all look exactly the same? Did he use a shake n bake mix to create man, because i don't see any ingriedents. Where did he get the image for women? come on.

Look at all the religions/beliefs that pre-dated christianity. Zoroastrianism, roman, greek, Assyrian, Sumerian, Hittite, Pagan, and Egyptian mythology, along with millions of different tribal beliefs. The majority of them had multiple deities, and therefore were looked upon as "zany" by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. I don't see how having multiple gods is any less logical than having the one god.


Now, excuse me while i creepeth to a topic that is in greater need of my opinion.
Austin
QUOTE(Masculine Pencil @ Dec 29 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]1275548[/snapback]

How funny, it seems that before you posted your opinionated pile of crap, you hadnt bothered to read the posts written before hand. Perhaps if you had of had a bit of a more open mind, you could have came up with a better responce. But just like most religious people, you got the drakonian drowned out moan of "im right your wrong"...


I'm not religious.. I follow no religion. I did scan through some of the posts.. I saw psychos arrogant drivel and Bain proved my point quite nicely by hopping straight in to a discussion on whether god exists by posting "Not only is there no proof, it just plainly doesnt make sense.

Until Jesus shows up at my door in a pirate outfit, with some hot sluts, beef jerky, and rum, then I dont believe any of this fairy tale shit."


QUOTE

The argument that the universe appeard out of nowhere is no more bizzare than the argument that God appeared out of no where.... is it? If god was "always there" its more than safe to say that the "universe" could always be there to. It isnt about being stupid, unless your talking American Christianity, anyway.

Your right, it's just as outlandish.. so why do atheists talk like their theory has more basis than the belief that god created the universe?

QUOTE

not trial and error, natural selection. There is a differecne.

I was responding to the trial and error argument.

QUOTE
why?

As I said, "When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error"." Chaos theory is the process of trial and error.. if a coin is placed on its side on a table.. you bang the table and it will eventually land on the side you want it to land on. If that was the case wit the creation of species.. then where's the evidence of all the errors.. The evidence points that perfect functioning creatures are created every time one pops up. There's no evidence of the mess in-between.. which goes with my point about humans evolving from apes, too.

QUOTE

Cro Magnum, ect? Plus, fossilization doesnt "automatically" happen. For example, it is estimated that 90% of the entire earth geom that was once living is now dead without a fossile.

That's irrelevant when we're talking about the shift from ape to human. Why would the transitional creatures not have skeletons when both apes and humans do?

QUOTE
Ghosts and god are completely difference, and science is not a law, it is a theory, which as some laws. Secondly, your assumption that everyone agrees that ghosts exist, is faulty.

I wasn't making the assumption everyone agrees ghosts exists.. I was illustrating how atheists like to dismiss that which doesn't fall under the laws of science.

QUOTE
So, then all religious people are arrogant to. Because anyone pretending there is a god is pretending they understand? Secondly, just because you dont have the will power to make a logical choice based on presented evidence doesnt make you any better than anyone else. It makes you one of those pathetic souls who picks the "winning" side.

What are you on about? What gave you the impression I'm religious? I think organised religion is one big joke.. and what's this will power crap? Atheists don't have the willpower to make a logical choice. They just cannot even contemplate anything that they can't make sense of themselves.. atheism and organised religion go hand in hand.

basicked
all i watn to say in response to 3:

it was a group of people who knew what they were going to do to the future.
Sanshiro
Please guys, try to make it a decent discussion, so that it will go on. These types of questions are rarely discussed among youngsters. So please, keep it decent and post more support and explanation.

Thank you Qdeath and psycho for your detailed posts. And psycho, regarding if Santa was real, did I say I'm Christian? I believe Jesus was a prophet of God, and so were the other prophets, but I don't call myself Christian. I'm rather a believer in God.

Nationalist Bain, one word: grow up. Please?
psychÝ
QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............

QUOTE

How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.
Not really,but it could quite easily always have been, how is that so hard to understand, and the fact that could happen by the fact that +1 + -1 = 0, the equation of the universe anti-matter + matter = nothing.
QUOTE

When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error".
How are we perfectly designed we die......................I can't run as fast as a horse to catch it, I have to use weapons I don't have giant titanium claws that can come out of my hands at will, I can't control the sun to get extra sun to make my crops grow, therefore I am not perfect.

When I can sit down in the presence of nothingness and never have to do anything and will still survive in optimum condtions for eternity then I will be perfect.

QUOTE

In fact chaos theory as an explanation is the weakest argument I've ever heard.
Do you even no what chaos theory is?
QUOTE
Evolution is pretty weak to some degree also.. I'll take humans as an example. If we evolved from apes.. shouldn't there be countless and I mean millions of "in-between" creatures.. going through from ape to human seen as evolution doesn't happen overnight. Yet where is the evidence of this?
That is because humans aren't idiots and decided the nice grass would be better than living in a swamp, pretty simple.
QUOTE

If science is the only law then how do you explain ghosts.. spirit mediums.. the supernatural in general? Wait, I know how you explain it.. you dismiss people who see ghosts as liars or mental cases and the same basically goes for spirit mediums.
Psychology, explains that most of it is from psychological trauma or general stress, ever walked through a grave yard in the evening after watch a horror film?

QUOTE

I think Atheists are generally unimaginative, ignorant, and very cold people. You're hard pushed to find a great atheist or a creative one.
Hardly Einstien was an atheist, he didn't believe in god even though tonnes of stuff claims he did, it is just the fact that if you are an athestis you don't waste your time trying to preach your shitty religion to people so no one brings it up.

coreyko_2003
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as Christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............


Actually no, its not. Its just to help with the upkeep of the church building. When one goes, they dont HAVE TO give.
psychÝ
QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1275601[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as Christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............


Actually no, its not. Its just to help with the upkeep of the church building. When one goes, they dont HAVE TO give.

...

Yeah apart from the fact that in the past the catholic church made you pay to have your sins forgiven.

Now a days they would just go, um............how about you get your fucking pope hat and anally ram yourself with it, and the kill him and say god forgive me and he would have to.
coreyko_2003
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:57 AM) [snapback]1275602[/snapback]

QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1275601[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as Christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............


Actually no, its not. Its just to help with the upkeep of the church building. When one goes, they dont HAVE TO give.

...

Yeah apart from the fact that in the past the catholic church made you pay to have your sins forgiven.

Now a days they would just go, um............how about you get your fucking pope hat and anally ram yourself with it, and the kill him and say god forgive me and he would have to.


That was then and this is now.
psychÝ
QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1275604[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:57 AM) [snapback]1275602[/snapback]

QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1275601[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as Christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............


Actually no, its not. Its just to help with the upkeep of the church building. When one goes, they dont HAVE TO give.

...

Yeah apart from the fact that in the past the catholic church made you pay to have your sins forgiven.

Now a days they would just go, um............how about you get your fucking pope hat and anally ram yourself with it, and the kill him and say god forgive me and he would have to.


That was then and this is now.


How does that make the slighest of difference it still means religion was just a money making scheme, but finally people have become aware of the scammers and are no longer fooled by there trickery.
coreyko_2003
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 11:08 AM) [snapback]1275605[/snapback]

QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1275604[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:57 AM) [snapback]1275602[/snapback]

QUOTE(KoreyKo_2005 @ Dec 29 2006, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1275601[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as Christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............


Actually no, its not. Its just to help with the upkeep of the church building. When one goes, they dont HAVE TO give.

...

Yeah apart from the fact that in the past the catholic church made you pay to have your sins forgiven.

Now a days they would just go, um............how about you get your fucking pope hat and anally ram yourself with it, and the kill him and say god forgive me and he would have to.


That was then and this is now.


How does that make the slighest of difference it still means religion WAS just a money making scheme, but finally people have become aware of the scammers and are no longer fooled by there trickery.


Take notice to "was". Also reitterates my point of that was then and this is now. Its not about that anymore. Its not about getting money off the people to forgive them of their sins. Hell, it wasn't even the Catholics that asked for money from people. It was the Southern Baptists, the ultra-religious crazies, that were on people for their money so they could repent and be "saved" (what a shitty concept).
psychÝ
QUOTE
Take notice to "was". Also reitterates my point of that was then and this is now. Its not about that anymore. Its not about getting money off the people to forgive them of their sins. Hell, it wasn't even the Catholics that asked for money from people. It was the Southern Baptists, the ultra-religious crazies, that were on people for their money so they could repent and be "saved" (what a shitty concept).


It is irrelivent that it was, the whole idea was made up to get money, the idea of god, sins and all that shit, it never existed, it was and still is a fraud.

Um............It was the catholics all through europe, where the religion started.
Austin
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 29 2006, 04:35 PM) [snapback]1275597[/snapback]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.

Well yes it will as christianity is just a scams to get peoples money.............

QUOTE

How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.
Not really,but it could quite easily always have been, how is that so hard to understand, and the fact that could happen by the fact that +1 + -1 = 0, the equation of the universe anti-matter + matter = nothing.
QUOTE

When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error".
How are we perfectly designed we die......................I can't run as fast as a horse to catch it, I have to use weapons I don't have giant titanium claws that can come out of my hands at will, I can't control the sun to get extra sun to make my crops grow, therefore I am not perfect.

When I can sit down in the presence of nothingness and never have to do anything and will still survive in optimum condtions for eternity then I will be perfect.

QUOTE

In fact chaos theory as an explanation is the weakest argument I've ever heard.
Do you even no what chaos theory is?
QUOTE
Evolution is pretty weak to some degree also.. I'll take humans as an example. If we evolved from apes.. shouldn't there be countless and I mean millions of "in-between" creatures.. going through from ape to human seen as evolution doesn't happen overnight. Yet where is the evidence of this?
That is because humans aren't idiots and decided the nice grass would be better than living in a swamp, pretty simple.
QUOTE

If science is the only law then how do you explain ghosts.. spirit mediums.. the supernatural in general? Wait, I know how you explain it.. you dismiss people who see ghosts as liars or mental cases and the same basically goes for spirit mediums.
Psychology, explains that most of it is from psychological trauma or general stress, ever walked through a grave yard in the evening after watch a horror film?

QUOTE

I think Atheists are generally unimaginative, ignorant, and very cold people. You're hard pushed to find a great atheist or a creative one.
Hardly Einstien was an atheist, he didn't believe in god even though tonnes of stuff claims he did, it is just the fact that if you are an athestis you don't waste your time trying to preach your shitty religion to people so no one brings it up.

Einstein was a deist.. that means he beloved in god. He is quoted as saying so.

What's nice grass and swamps got do with anything... We're talking about where their bodies died.

On the perfection point.. that's not what I was talking about.

IPB Image

That is a beautiful animal. Everything about it makes me think intelligent design.



Also some of the atheist kids have got it in to their heads "God" was created by Christians.. the belief in god is far older than the Christian faith just so you know.
psychÝ
QUOTE

Einstein was a deist.. that means he beloved in god. He is quoted as saying so.

He was quoted saying alot of thing, most of it he didn't say
QUOTE

What's nice grass and swamps got do with anything... We're talking about where their bodies died.
Therefore proving your complete and utter ignorance to the subject, if you go die in pretty much any place that is nice for a human to live you won't be fossiled, hence the fact there are no fossles, you need anerobic conditions where breakdown won't occur, like a swamp, a tar pit, or somewhere that any animal with a slight bit of inteligence is going to fall it, and then you have to find the fossil once it is there.
QUOTE

On the perfection point.. that's not what I was talking about.

IPB Image

That is a beautiful animal. Everything about it makes me think intelligent design.

How so.............it isn't perfect, it needs to feed off other animals and can't make its own food therefore isn't perfect.

QUOTE

Also some of the atheist kids have got it in to their heads "God" was created by Christians.. the belief in god is far older than the Christian faith just so you know.

Thats great back from the times when people didn't know about science,

If you don't know the answer to a question make it up, if no one can prove you wrong what to say it isn't right, and that is what religion is based on a retarded concept.
QUOTE

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Who the hell is he even talking about and who is he talking to, clearly insane.

He could have quite easily just said, "Made a couple of leptons made a few quarks stuck them together and look what I got."




Qdeathstar
QUOTE


I'm not religious.. I follow no religion. I did scan through some of the posts.. I saw psychos arrogant drivel and Bain proved my point quite nicely by hopping straight in to a discussion on whether god exists by posting "Not only is there no proof, it just plainly doesnt make sense.

Until Jesus shows up at my door in a pirate outfit, with some hot sluts, beef jerky, and rum, then I dont believe any of this fairy tale shit."


Why bother arguing for something you dont believe in. Or are you just backing out of an impossible argument to make?

QUOTE

Your right, it's just as outlandish.. so why do atheists talk like their theory has more basis than the belief that god created the universe?


Because, while there is emperical evidence that the universe always existed, there is very little to support the believe that a supernatural God existed prior to anything else.

QUOTE

I was responding to the trial and error argument.


Well, in either case, your both still wrong. As it isnt trial and error, its natural selection.

Your also getting theories mixed up, it isnt chaos theory, but the theory of evolution. (and natural selection).

If animals are so perfect, why are they becomming extinct?

QUOTE

That's irrelevant when we're talking about the shift from ape to human. Why would the transitional creatures not have skeletons when both apes and humans do?


What? Cromagnum's and neanderthals both had bones. Maybe you need to spend some more time in class O.o?

QUOTE

I wasn't making the assumption everyone agrees ghosts exists.. I was illustrating how atheists like to dismiss that which doesn't fall under the laws of science.


By choosing an example that is false? O.o. We could dismiss ghosts just as easily as we could dismiss a god, because they are both untrue. If your going to play that line, you need to mention something that isnt explained, and can never be explained, by science, but is actually true.

QUOTE

What are you on about? What gave you the impression I'm religious? I think organised religion is one big joke.. and what's this will power crap? Atheists don't have the willpower to make a logical choice. They just cannot even contemplate anything that they can't make sense of themselves.. atheism and organised religion go hand in hand.


Religion is synonymous with God. I never said organized religion. Secondly, your wrong. Its not that athiests cannot contemplate anything that they cant make sense of. Athiests choose NOT to try to make sence of things they cannot understand.


Believe in God: Why did the baby die? Gods will.
Athiest: Why did the baby die? He was negleted, you can see that since he died from starvation.
Juice
QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 12:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

I really hope this isn't going to turn to Christian bashing as usual.


Atheists generally seem to be a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spend 90% of their time slagging off Christianity and are unable to put up a decent argument against the existence of a creator/god.


How is it retarded/ignorant to believe in a god? You can't seriously tell me (atheists) that you believe the universe appeared out of nowhere and for no reason and suddenly some stuff exploded and spawned planets and life.


When I look at some creatures and the perfection in their design.. I find it impossible to believe they were created by "trial and error".

In fact chaos theory as an explanation is the weakest argument I've ever heard. Evolution is pretty weak to some degree also.. I'll take humans as an example. If we evolved from apes.. shouldn't there be countless and I mean millions of "in-between" creatures.. going through from ape to human seen as evolution doesn't happen overnight. Yet where is the evidence of this? There is very little.

If science is the only law then how do you explain ghosts.. spirit mediums.. the supernatural in general? Wait, I know how you explain it.. you dismiss people who see ghosts as liars or mental cases and the same basically goes for spirit mediums.


I think Atheists are generally unimaginative, ignorant, and very cold people. You're hard pushed to find a great atheist or a creative one. From my experience most of them seem to be ex-Christians who've decided organised religion is a load of shit and therefore no god exists full stop. I suggest trying to separate believing in a religion to believing in a god.

Agnostic is probably the safest bet.. no one has the answers, and pretending that you understand is just arrogance at its extreme.

I can't be bothered to proof read what I just typed so I hope it doesn't sound too rantish or dumb.

My thoughts exactly. Do I believe in god? Fuck no, science disproves all religious teachings. "Religion is an accepted form of insanity" - PsychÝ

Do I feel the need to participate in a looping argument and/or convert people to atheism? No.
BULLETZ144
i find it funny how psycho right off the bat goes "who created God!!!! and don't tell me he was always there!!!" when hes stated time and time again he believes the earth has simply always been here....
psychÝ
QUOTE(BULLETZ144 @ Dec 29 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]1275752[/snapback]

i find it funny how psycho right off the bat goes "who created God!!!! and don't tell me he was always there!!!" when hes stated time and time again he believes the earth has simply always been here....

Um............I have never and never will state that the earth has always been here as that is a retarded statement.
Mr. Nice
QUOTE
Atheists generally seem to be a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spend 90% of their time slagging off Christianity and are unable to put up a decent argument against the existence of a creator/god.


Are you stupid? Did you not read the arguments that were posted prior to your pompous ass entering this topic? Sure, athiests are the arrogant assholes when christian fundamentalists constantly preach to people who have different faiths and bomb abortion and stem cell research labs. Nothing spells "open minded individual" like someone who calls me an evil heathen for not worshipping a dead jew.

Here is how smart religious people are;


They believe in God; The supreme being that is omnipotent and omniscient. Since he is omnipontent, he has the power to create a stone so big that he himself cannot lift, and at the same time he must be able to lift it (Larf). And since he is omniscient, he has the power to know everything, even what you will do tomorrow, thus, you have no free will (despite the countless arguments by retarted bible thumpers that suffering exists because of free will).

God is a self contradictory idea.


tom.com
God was made to give us somin to beleive in ( if he's real or not no one knows ).
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
Sanshiro:

I've written quite a lot here. Please don't ignore it and recycle your shitty arguments.

QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 28 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]1275091[/snapback]

1) Cause and Effect:

We all agree that for every action, be it tiny or huge, there is always a cause, a reason why that action took place. You are here, because your mom gave birth to you. You eat because if you don't you'll die. You play videogames because you want to have fun. If a new machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before is shown to any person, then we ask him: "who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?" After little bit of thinking, he will reply: "the creator of that object." Some may say "the producer" or "the manufacturer." What ever answer the person gives, you name it, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it.
And what caused God...

Sorry, but the argument of cause and effect just proves existence. It does not prove that someone created existence, just that something - ANYTHING, came first. You've narrowed it down to a 328497328457328zillion to one chance that it was "God". It could equally be a toaster.

QUOTE
2) Hierarchy:

Just look around you, everything in life is ranked and has something/someone that has the authority above it/him. The father above son, the manager above employees, the president above his nation, the teacher above his students, the Sun above the Milky-Way planets, and etc. This hierarchy system guarantees the existence of life, because without it there to be chaos, war, and doom of mankind. Therefore, there must be a "boss" for this whole universe.
My watch tells the time, my clock tells the time, there are many examples in the observable world of things that tell time, and there have been for many years.

Therefor, the world would be in chaos if the Universe was not a giant clock.

Sorry, your argument is stupid.

QUOTE
3) History:

We all read in history about prophets like Noah, Abraham, Jesus, David, Jacob, Muhammad, Joseph, and so on. We read about their books that were revealed to them by God, as they claimed. We read about the countless billions people who followed them through all these centuries. These information, where did it came from? You might say: "Someone invented those lies." But how come billions of people are following and believing the same lies? Are all historians since Noah that dumb to keep passing such never-happened events? This is like denying the fact that earth is sphere-shaped by throwing all scientists space photos and theories in the garbage can. The probability of denial against that of acceptance is very weak.
XDXDXD.

Everyone likes it, so it must be true? Fucksake, everyone thought the world was flat, everyone thought that cigarettes don't harm you, everyone thought that Nazism was a good idea. PROPAGANDA. Poeple want other people to believe it, to control them, to give them false hope, and to have a reason to go on crusades and the like. People themselves want to believe it, because it's a very easy answer.

Comparing it to a scientic theory is fucking scandalous. There is no evidence. It's a conjecture at best.

QUOTE
4) Perfect Universe:

(A) Everything in this world is connected as we all studied and experience in our daily lives. Everything seems to be doing its "assigned" job. The sun shines every morning at a certain time, moves through its arc in the sky, then sets. It has a certain distance from the earth which if increased or decreased a bit we all would burn, as scientists say. There is Day for going to work and doing activities, and there is Night for sleep and rest. Night is dark and calm to help us sleep and rest.

(B)The human body, just look at it. Every bone, muscle, cell, and so on, has a certain job. Why does a pet bury its waste? Who taught it that? Why do animals that live in cold areas have thick fur?
(A) The Universe is not perfect. If the Universe was perfect I would not have a hangover. And joking aside, there would be no genocides or famines if the Universe was perfect. Night is not calm. Any calmness that exists at night, exists because people are asleep. This is the doing of people, not God. It is evolutionarily advantageous to sleep at night, as no large predators hunt at night, and it is safe to lie down. It is unsafe to move around in the dark, as there is a risk, especially back in the day, of wandering into a tar pit. The people who roamed at night quietly went extinct. It makes sense.

It's typically egotistical of you to believe the sun shines just for us. It is not the perfect distance between us and the sun, our orbit changes over thousands of years, meaning temperature changes and mass suffering for those living on the extremes already. Glaciers melt, hurricanes blow, tsunamis and earthquakes and volcanic eruptions kill millions. So much for perfection, bloody hell.

(B) Oh God. Tell me you didn't just say that =/

Whether you believe in it or not, you can't argue that evolution answers these questions perfectly.

Not to mention:
  • Not everything has a job. The appendix is useless. It doesn't fit into intelligent design AT ALL. It is an evolutionary throwback though, and may in the past have been able to digest cellulose.
  • Same with the tailbone, and most reactions to cold (hair standing on end, for example); they are useless now.
  • If you had a dog you would know that pets do not bury their waste.
QUOTE
If I tell an atheist or any person that my cat jumped into my keyboard yesterday and started to write a letter to me with perfect grammar, would he believe it? Of course not, because if he does, he is biologically insane. The same thing is with this universe, if such person doesn't believe this small story of my pet, how come he believes that this whole universe came from nowhere or by chance? I once read somewhere an old story of two philosophers who were discussing the existence of god. They agreed to meet at some place where people can gather and watch. The atheist philosopher arrived first, but the one who believes in god was intentionally late. After hours, he showed up. The atheist asked him: "Where have you been all this time?" He replied: "Well, I didn't find any boat to cross the river so I waited for a while until I saw some floating wood sticks on the river gathered in front of me and arranged themselves rapidly to create this beautiful boat which allowed me to cross the river. So here I am." The atheist philosopher said: "Did you hear that people? This man is insane! How would a boat creates itself without a carpenter?" The believer philosopher said: "Look at you, you don't believe that a small boat was created without a carpenter, yet you believe this whole world has no creator?" The atheist philosopher was stunned in silence, and the debate was over.
Another classic idiotic argument. If you think about it properly, you'd realise that there a few huge, gaping, unavoidable differences between the two.

Firstly. A man stranded on one side of a river needs a boat, a boat is the optimum thing for a man attempting to cross a river. The odds of a boat forming without a carpenter are miniscule. Critically though, the laws of physics are also against him. The second law of thermodynamics, which creationists love and apply incorrectly any time they have the chance dictates that:

"Matter in a closed system tends towards chaos" (paraphrase)

Meaning that in a closed system such as a river, things fall apart and will not build up. In a boundless Universe however, things may bind together given the correct enthalpy.

Secondly, the Universe is not a useful thing, all things considered. Its materialisation could not be coinsidered lucky nor coincidental, as it is not a useful thing. The buildup of life, whether you consider it useful or not, was not a thing that was required to the precursor, but a series of reactions that gave itself replication, and by those means longevity. It is NOT the same as a boat.

Thirdly and finally, what you consider to be beautiful or useful is not, by definition, either of these things. What exists is all your eyes have ever seen. Beautiful things are only beautiful in relation to other things you have seen. Therefor this argument is null and void.

QUOTE
To conclude, was a person, who denies the existence of god, created from nothing? Did this person create himself? Did he create this world? Just think of it. People say "Oh my God!". I've found that proving the existence of god needs simple thinking and use of common sense and intuition. I think it's already a built-in feature in our innate selves when we were born. Ask children, and see their answers. It's only when we try to depend entirely on our intellects or raw senses that a clash occurs. Not all that we perceive by our five senses is only true. If I told a medieval guy about cell phones, airplanes, Playstations, iPods... etc, he would definitely say I am crazy, and probably would kill me. Why? Because he used his senses only as a support. I'm just trying to say we cannot depend entirely on our senses or intellects, sometimes. The intellect has "no personality" as Einstein said.
This is really the stupidest argument of the bunch, so excuse me for editting out the rambling.

1) I also say "Well fuck me!". It does not mean I want instant sex. With the person I say it to. Which could be my brother.
2) When did I ever say I created the world? Fucking hell, talk about putting words in someone's mouth. And by the way, I don't want to have rough sex with a fictional underground torture chamber either ("Fucking hell")
3) Well I'd like to see some of the common sense, I've seen a lot of the intuition.
4) Children also think, until they are told otherwise, that the sun orbits the Earth. It instinctively makes sense. When we begin to depend on our intellects, we seek out the knowledge, we find out we were wrong. Children are not to be relied on to tell me how to think. It's fucking obvious to anyone with common sense that children are not as wise as adults. Any argument that relies on children's mental superiority for its crux is a flawed one.
5) The medievil guy would kill you because of his senses? WRONG. He'd kill you because technology is ungodly, ironically.
6) I do not get told by my senses that God doesn't exist. My senses are for processing chemical messages from the world. Completely irrelevant.

QUOTE
Believing in the existence of god doesn't mean opposing science, because studying science makes me more aware of how this world is engineered and perfectly designed to its smallest bits. Only a false religion, belief, or weak knowledge of science would deny the existence of god, and as the famous philosopher Francis Bacon said: "A little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God." Therefore, If you deny god, you're denying false models of god, but not God.
Except all the bits that don't fit, ignore those.

QUOTE
From what I read and experience, I firmly believe that God does exist. I believe there is only one God, not two, not three. I believe Jesus was a prophet of God, but NOT a god himself, neither a son of God. I believe the only God has perfect qualities and attributes unlike human beings. I believe He is above. I believe there were prophets sent by God. The concept of Paradise and Hell seems logical. There does exist a "Judgment Day."
Why not a flying spaghetti monster? It's equally logical.

QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 28 2006, 08:10 PM) [snapback]1275099[/snapback]

So we came from nowhere? This is illogical.

QUOTE(Bag Of Puppies @ Dec 28 2006, 10:48 PM) [snapback]1275096[/snapback]

the earth was created from a couple of big rocks that clumped together and all organisms including humans where created trough evolution.

And who did that? Don't tell me by chance, cause I'm not gonna believe you. sleep.gif
Chemicals are attracted to other chemicals, gravitational pulls attract more chemicals, sufficient gravitational pull forces objects into a basically round shape. Laws of physics, thanks very much.

--------------------


Austin:

QUOTE(Austin (Paraphrased) @ Dec 29 2006, 07:49 AM) [snapback]1275497[/snapback]

What about ghosts lol?
Ghosts, on top of the fact that they could just, "not exist", although that's a difficult concept, there is a scientific explanation.

I've posted it a million times, so if you're really interested either search or wiki it, but here's the condensed version:

Einstein, relativity, time is not linear, times cross instantaneously, apparitions of past may appear.


QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 29 2006, 06:01 PM) [snapback]1275618[/snapback]

Einstein was a deist.. that means he beloved in god. He is quoted as saying so.

On the perfection point.. that's not what I was talking about.

IPB Image

That is a beautiful animal. Everything about it makes me think intelligent design.



Also some of the atheist kids have got it in to their heads "God" was created by Christians.. the belief in god is far older than the Christian faith just so you know.
Deism is belief in a first cause for the effect that is the universe. This is not necessarily "God", but is called God for convenience. It could be an algorithm, a yellow hat, a toaster filled with dogshit, a Westlife CD, a worn-out cigarillo...any of these things as much as it could be a Christian-like God. And please don't drag Einstein into this. He's on record saying that he disliked being used as a figurehead to prove blindly religious people are smart - or right.

You've never seen anything which doesn't exist. How do you know what exists is more beautiful?

It's not a hard question, if you are aware that everything is relative.

BULLETZ:

QUOTE(BULLETZ144 @ Dec 29 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]1275752[/snapback]

i find it funny how psycho right off the bat goes "who created God!!!! and don't tell me he was always there!!!" when hes stated time and time again he believes the earth has simply always been here....
ARE YOU ACTUALLY KIDDING?

SERIOUSLY?

When has anyone ever said that!?

[Edit] By the way, the burden of proof is still on you guys. In case you forgot.
Bain
QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 29 2006, 10:08 AM) [snapback]1275591[/snapback]



Nationalist Bain, one word: grow up. Please?




Hey, you're the one that believes in a bearded fairy that took a shit and created civilization.
Austin
Too much to respond to.. I won't bother taking on 5 atheists at once.. just to correct a few things and respond to some points rather than quoting everyone.. I never said creatures were perfect.. I talked about the perfection in their design, I didn't say they were perfect.. you can't define perfect anyway.

I'm saying when I look at some of the beautiful creations I don't see them being created without some form of intelligent design behind them.

It's funny bean picker how you always come crawling out of the woodwork when one of these topics comes up.. still don't know why you think I'm pompous. I don't look down upon other people in general.. and you also proved my point.. it didn't take you long to rant about Christian fundamentalists either.


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"Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that (generally) involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief."


You do not have to be religious to believe in a creator/god. This is why I see atheists constantly talking about what's wrong with religion as largely irrelevant to the argument as to whether god exists.

Atheists do claim to understand by believing there is no god and taking the road of science 100%. Why do humans think they are so great and knowledgeable? No one can have the answers so why pretend to know either way? I don't try and convince people to believing in god.. I just state my reasons why I believe in a creator.. I don't pretend to have a great understanding like evolutionists or religious people.

I mean atheists in the western world are one-trick pony's. They scream on and on and on about Christianity being a farce.. I've yet to come across an atheist who can put an argument against Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism and so on.. Why? Because they know jack shit about those religions.. they don't understand them.
There are many theories.. yet I'm willing to bet 99% of all so-called atheists have not studied anything but the scientific theories and the Holy Bible.


The greatest scientist who ever lived was a Deist.. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein.

Few have a greater understanding of science than him.. so why didn't he consider himself an atheist?

Just remember that you're dealing with theory.. Evolution is a theory, the "Big Bang" is a theory.. stop talking like they're facts.


Anyway I ramble on and on.. maybe one day I will make a coherent post.



Qdeathstar
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Too much to respond to.. I won't bother taking on 5 atheists at once.. just to correct a few things and respond to some points rather than quoting everyone.. I never said creatures were perfect.. I talked about the perfection in their design, I didn't say they were perfect.. you can't define perfect anyway.



... If a creature has a perfect design, the creature cannot be imperfect... So theres no difference between the two statements.

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I'm saying when I look at some of the beautiful creations I don't see them being created without some form of intelligent design behind them.


Yeah, its called Natural Selection.

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"Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that (generally) involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief."


You do not have to be religious to believe in a creator/god. This is why I see atheists constantly talking about what's wrong with religion as largely irrelevant to the argument as to whether god exists.


The Term religion refers to BOTH the personal practices related to faith....

Secondly, talking about whats wrong with relegion is extreamely revelent to the argument of whether god exist. If everyone has a different opinion as to what god is, yet at the same time God can only be one thing, you obviously have a problem. However, you need to keep in mind that the descrepancy in religions is only "one more thing" and that you have faild to adress more pressing questions
Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
[u]Austin:[/bu]

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 30 2006, 10:31 AM) [snapback]1276018[/snapback]

Too much to respond to.. I won't bother taking on 5 atheists at once.. just to correct a few things and respond to some points rather than quoting everyone.. I never said creatures were perfect.. I talked about the perfection in their design, I didn't say they were perfect.. you can't define perfect anyway.
Astounding!

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I'm saying when I look at some of the beautiful creations I don't see them being created without some form of intelligent design behind them.
Oh shit I forgot we were debating over what your opinion is on the matter, rather than the truth =/

You do not have to be religious to believe in a creator/god. This is why I see atheists constantly talking about what's wrong with religion as largely irrelevant to the argument as to whether god exists.

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Atheists do claim to understand by believing there is no god and taking the road of science 100%. Why do humans think they are so great and knowledgeable? No one can have the answers so why pretend to know either way? I don't try and convince people to believing in god.. I just state my reasons why I believe in a creator.. I don't pretend to have a great understanding like evolutionists or religious people.
I don't claim to know anything, I just claim to know enough to disprove a benevolent and perfect God =/

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I mean atheists in the western world are one-trick pony's. They scream on and on and on about Christianity being a farce.. I've yet to come across an atheist who can put an argument against Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism and so on.. Why? Because they know jack shit about those religions.. they don't understand them.
There are many theories.. yet I'm willing to bet 99% of all so-called atheists have not studied anything but the scientific theories and the Holy Bible.
I don't see your problem with this. When peopel are arguing with atheists they are generally Christians. I'm sure every other religion is equally bullshit. Especially Hinduism.

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The greatest scientist who ever lived was a Deist.. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein.

Few have a greater understanding of science than him.. so why didn't he consider himself an atheist?
I'm not answering the same question again. Don't be so lazy. Read.

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Just remember that you're dealing with theory.. Evolution is a theory, the "Big Bang" is a theory.. stop talking like they're facts.
I'm perfectly aware it's the best theory. And the only competing one is a conjecture, an unfalsible conjecture. Since evolution is ultimately a falsible theory, and hasn't been proved false, unlike any other theory of this line, it is the best theory that exists, and the most likely.

The logical structure of theology makes it unfalsible, because it is generally a set of vague existential statements. It is not scientific.

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Anyway I ramble on and on.. maybe one day I will make a coherent post.
I'm not holding my breath.
psychÝ
QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 30 2006, 10:31 AM) [snapback]1276018[/snapback]

I never said creatures were perfect.. I talked about the perfection in their design, I didn't say they were perfect.. you can't define perfect anyway.
Most creatures can't make there own food, therefore are not perfectly designed, is that so hard to work out.

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I'm saying when I look at some of the beautiful creations I don't see them being created without some form of intelligent design behind them.
Define beautiful it is your opinion, if something came from another planet maybe every creature there would twice the inteligence of humans, therefore this whole planet would look like a bunch of idiots.
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It's funny bean picker how you always come crawling out of the woodwork when one of these topics comes up.. still don't know why you think I'm pompous. I don't look down upon other people in general.. and you also proved my point.. it didn't take you long to rant about Christian fundamentalists either.
Your pompous because you didn't even bother to read my first post which proves your damn religious crap wrong.

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You do not have to be religious to believe in a creator/god. This is why I see atheists constantly talking about what's wrong with religion as largely irrelevant to the argument as to whether god exists.
Hardly about 70% of the world belongs to a major religion

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Atheists do claim to understand by believing there is no god and taking the road of science 100%. Why do humans think they are so great and knowledgeable?
They don't it is quite obvious to any sane person that just because someone wrote a book about something doesn't mean it is true

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I don't pretend to have a great understanding like evolutionists or religious people.
Ye, we know.
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I mean atheists in the western world are one-trick pony's. They scream on and on and on about Christianity being a farce.. I've yet to come across an atheist who can put an argument against Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism and so on.. Why? Because they know jack shit about those religions.. they don't understand them.
There are many theories.. yet I'm willing to bet 99% of all so-called atheists have not studied anything but the scientific theories and the Holy Bible.

How is that really relevent, none of them are based on science and therefore are just made up crap, some of that crap might be right and that part is normally just common sense, for example "Love thy neighbour", it is state the obvious that you should be nice to people.

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The greatest scientist who ever lived was a Deist.. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein.
You claim your not pompous but just ramble on and on without even reading what anyone else has written hence the fact you couldn't be bothered to quote it because you don't know what to quote.
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Few have a greater understanding of science than him.. so why didn't he consider himself an atheist?
Actually alot of peole would have a greater understanding than him, mainly because he was a physist not a biologist or a chemist or a psychologist, stop trying to put science in a group.

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Just remember that you're dealing with theory.. Evolution is a theory, the "Big Bang" is a theory.. stop talking like they're facts.
They are only theroies because you can't make an equation on them, I mean there is empirical evidence of evolution.
However personally I am dubious about the big bang theory but there you go.
Sanshiro
QUOTE(Epileptic Bagpipes @ Dec 30 2006, 07:12 AM) [snapback]1275926[/snapback]

I've written quite a lot here. Please don't ignore it and recycle your shitty arguments.

No, I didn't ignore it. I read every word in it. It seems that you somehow believe in pure science as a god. Thanks for your post.
psychÝ
QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 30 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]1276134[/snapback]

QUOTE(Epileptic Bagpipes @ Dec 30 2006, 07:12 AM) [snapback]1275926[/snapback]

I've written quite a lot here. Please don't ignore it and recycle your shitty arguments.

No, I didn't ignore it. I read every word in it. It seems that you somehow believe in pure science as a god. Thanks for your post.

Science isn't a god, it is a series of emprical evidence, theories and laws.
Amis
God does not exist.

Don't say that you have heard God talking to you. Becouse if you do say it, then you were either drunk, or high, or just being paranoid. It's all in your head. They (priests, religious people) have made you to believe in their lies.

If you are stupid enough to believe in them, then you are stupid enough to believe in some other fake shit too.

I just like in the 70's all the commies were like "Soviet Union is a paradise on Earth".

It's just pure proganda. And after you start to believe in something, you start thinking that, anyone who don't believe like you do, is wrong.

Which causes this:

Christian: Your god is bullshit compared to my God.
Muslim: O RLY? Our mighty Allah will destroy your satanic God.

Like someone said before, the result is that believer thinks he is right and everybody else is wrong.

Just look at Bush. "Either you are with us or against us" dry.gif
Sanshiro
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 30 2006, 07:58 PM) [snapback]1276147[/snapback]
Science isn't a god, it is a series of emprical evidence, theories and laws.

If one thinks those laws and theories created us, then he sure believes in them as a god. The great explosions that happened long ago to form earth and life are not that 'smart' to later on form a human being who has emtions, who can cry and laugh, who creates super computers. It's just insane to think that this organized reality we live in came by accident or from nowhere.

QUOTE(Amis @ Dec 30 2006, 08:45 PM) [snapback]1276161[/snapback]
God does not exist.

Don't say that you have heard God talking to you. Becouse if you do say it, then you were either drunk, or high, or just being paranoid. It's all in your head. They (priests, religious people) have made you to believe in their lies.

If you are stupid enough to believe in them, then you are stupid enough to believe in some other fake shit too.

I just like in the 70's all the commies were like "Soviet Union is a paradise on Earth".

It's just pure proganda. And after you start to believe in something, you start thinking that, anyone who don't believe like you do, is wrong.

Which causes this:

Christian: Your god is bullshit compared to my God.
Muslim: O RLY? Our mighty Allah will destroy your satanic God.

Like someone said before, the result is that believer thinks he is right and everybody else is wrong.

Just look at Bush. "Either you are with us or against us" dry.gif


- I didn't say I heard God talking to me. However, I read that He talked to Moses and I believe that. Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Actually, the word 'Allah' in Muslim's language means 'The Only God.' The difference might be that some Christians believe Jesus is God himself, which I disagree with.

- If someone believes in something to be right, of course he would relatively believe that the ideas opposed to this belief are wrong. This is simple logic.

- Who cares about George Bush's statements? The guy is a liar.
psychÝ
QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 30 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]1276190[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 30 2006, 07:58 PM) [snapback]1276147[/snapback]
Science isn't a god, it is a series of emprical evidence, theories and laws.

If one thinks those laws and theories created us, then he sure believes in them as a god. The great explosions that happened long ago to form earth and life are not that 'smart' to later on form a human being who has emtions, who can cry and laugh, who creates super computers. It's just insane to think that this organized reality we live in came by accident or from nowhere.
It isn't an accident and no it isn't insane it is far more sane than a magical man in the sky did it.
And no it isn't a god, no one is going to worship an explosion that is what insane people do, it is just a thing that happened.

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some Christians believe Jesus is God himself, which I disagree with.
Since when, the whole idea was he was the son of god................................

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- If someone believes in something to be right, of course he would relatively believe that the ideas opposed to this belief are wrong. This is simple logic.
Yeah, because they are ignorant to anything other than it, even when it is based apon something with no logical, empirical or barely historical evidence.
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- Who cares about George Bush's statements? The guy is a liar.
Oh the irony in that statement, the whole of religion is a lie
Amis
I just have to say that while reading this, I agree in every post in this topic submitted by psychÝ and Epileptic Bagpipes.
Mr. Nice
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It's funny bean picker how you always come crawling out of the woodwork when one of these topics comes up.. still don't know why you think I'm pompous. I don't look down upon other people in general.. and you also proved my point.. it didn't take you long to rant about Christian fundamentalists either.


Aw come on now, Austin, no need to use the same tired insult that you've been using since I've registered here, you know I'm your hero. smile.gif

I find it hilarious how you constantly accuse athiests to be arrogant shit heads when, as psycho pointed out, you didn't even bother to read any of the points written but instead posted your own half-asseed opinion on the matter, which was quite biased and bigotted, I might add. I wasn't so much "ranting" about christian fundamentalists as I was stating a few facts, no need to hitch a ride on my nuts for pointing a few things out.


Geez, people are so hostile around here....

Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester
QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 30 2006, 04:58 PM) [snapback]1276147[/snapback]

QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 30 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]1276134[/snapback]

QUOTE(Epileptic Bagpipes @ Dec 30 2006, 07:12 AM) [snapback]1275926[/snapback]

I've written quite a lot here. Please don't ignore it and recycle your shitty arguments.

No, I didn't ignore it. I read every word in it. It seems that you somehow believe in pure science as a god. Thanks for your post.

Science isn't a god, it is a series of emprical evidence, theories and laws.
QFT. Sanshiro: You read what you wanted to read. You did not reply to my valid points.


QUOTE(Sanshiro @ Dec 30 2006, 06:48 PM) [snapback]1276190[/snapback]

QUOTE(psychÝ @ Dec 30 2006, 07:58 PM) [snapback]1276147[/snapback]
Science isn't a god, it is a series of emprical evidence, theories and laws.

If one thinks those laws and theories created us, then he sure believes in them as a god. The great explosions that happened long ago to form earth and life are not that 'smart' to later on form a human being who has emtions, who can cry and laugh, who creates super computers. It's just insane to think that this organized reality we live in came by accident or from nowhere.
*Bashes head against a wall*
  • Anyone who thinks things need to be smart to self-replicate, or even participate in synthesis reactions, doesn't understand even the basics of molecular science.
  • Emotions are chemical movements. They are caused by hormones. Hormones are just globular proteins. Proteins are just diferrent shapes of Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon - possibly joined by Sulphur bridges. They are not magic. This can be empirically proven. Useful movement of hormones - or any chemicals - gives a group of replicating chemicals - an organism - better chances to further replicate. This can also be empirically proven. Complexity of these chemical movements, however incidental, may aid replication chances. THEREFOR it is obvious that these perceived "emotions" can arise in an open system, and are advantageous to replication.
  • Reality is not truly organised. Only a closed system with limited and controlled input is organised.
  • "Accident" is not an appropriate word. Refer to my reply to your boat analogy.
  • "...from nowhere" applies equally to the probability of a God, perhaps more so.

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QUOTE(Amis @ Dec 30 2006, 08:45 PM) [snapback]1276161[/snapback]
God does not exist.

And words.


- I didn't say I heard God talking to me. However, I read that He talked to Moses and I believe that. Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Actually, the word 'Allah' in Muslim's language means 'The Only God.' The difference might be that some Christians believe Jesus is God himself, which I disagree with.
WHY? Honestly, why? There is no logical reason.
Bain
QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 30 2006, 04:31 AM) [snapback]1276018[/snapback]


I'm saying when I look at some of the beautiful creations I don't see them being created without some form of intelligent design behind them.



So god got drunk with a box of crayons and created each animal, and its organs, habits, etc?

Wow. Better than any science fiction I have ever seen or read.

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 30 2006, 04:31 AM) [snapback]1276018[/snapback]

It's funny bean picker how you always come crawling out of the woodwork when one of these topics comes up.. still don't know why you think I'm pompous. I don't look down upon other people in general.. and you also proved my point.. it didn't take you long to rant about Christian fundamentalists either.




Its funny how you are probably the most pompous member on these forums and you blurt out racial insults when you cant explain how the universe was created by some imaginary all powerful god who apparently has skills to create the world we live in.

QUOTE(Austin @ Dec 30 2006, 04:31 AM) [snapback]1276018[/snapback]


1-You do not have to be religious to believe in a creator/god. This is why I see atheists constantly talking about what's wrong with religion as largely irrelevant to the argument as to whether god exists.

2-Atheists do claim to understand by believing there is no god and taking the road of science 100%. Why do humans think they are so great and knowledgeable? No one can have the answers so why pretend to know either way? I don't try and convince people to believing in god.. I just state my reasons why I believe in a creator.. I don't pretend to have a great understanding like evolutionists or religious people.

3-I mean atheists in the western world are one-trick pony's. They scream on and on and on about Christianity being a farce.. I've yet to come across an atheist who can put an argument against Islam, Judaism, or Hinduism and so on.. Why? Because they know jack shit about those religions.. they don't understand them.
There are many theories.. yet I'm willing to bet 99% of all so-called atheists have not studied anything but the scientific theories and the Holy Bible.



1-Yes religion is bullshit, but at least it keeps morons in line in some countries.
On the other hand, believing that one creature is the inventor of everything?

NoÖ.

2-Humans arent, but at least they try study and work while this Ďgodí you speak of has the ability to create and create shittily apparently because this world is full of shit.


3-Islam, Judaism, and all others are a farce. The only good religions are atheist ones the preach in humans being peaceful to one another.

You havent mentioned me in this argument even realizing the fact I make my same argument this topic is brought up,
The message is simple.
Religion(period) is bullshit. God is made up in text by people in the past to answer the questions they had. We now have science which humans are advancing in to explain things to us.

What scientific theories are there to learn about the bible?

People, fucking humans wrote that thousands of years ago, basing their ideas off of people hundreds of thousands of years before them (who made up god because they assumed someone must be responsible) when people regularly shit anywhere they pleased.
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