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> I fucking hate these rules.
Bain
post Jun 1 2010, 12:29 PM
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http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/...bandage-repeat/

Tell me to fight a war the way you want it.

Do I really need to stress my opinion on this shit.

It has happened to my friend a few times, now.


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Passionate Homo ...
post Jun 4 2010, 01:53 AM
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QUOTE (Spoiler @ Jun 2 2010, 03:06 AM) *
QUOTE (NukaLurk @ Jun 1 2010, 04:20 PM) *
The US is not party to any rules of war. Being said, we conduct warfare in this manner to eventually reinforce the ideology that American forces are there to help. Eventually, the guerilla fighter should come to realize that he has received better treatment and care under the invasionary force then his own.

It would help more if the Afghans weren't all stupid as shit though.


i think if not for today's state of the media, this ideology will be just that, ideology. and afghan would be vietnam all over again with agent yellow and others.
after all US is in it to win it. now their soldiers are paying the price for playing good guys.
Yes, Vietnam, that famous American victory.

Is that really the citadel? Are those the values of "freedom" and "patriotism" that we're all supposed to be fighting for?

Is there no feeling that at the most basic level, we should try and behave morally? Be the best, not just at killing people but at doing things for a reason? Sad, the other side will resort to any level of foul play. I don't begrudge them it: imagine yourself in their position. The thing I dispute is their doing it in the name of a higher power answerable to no one, but again that's something we can't claim the high ground on.


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Bain
post Jun 5 2010, 04:55 AM
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QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun 3 2010, 08:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Spoiler @ Jun 2 2010, 03:06 AM) *
QUOTE (NukaLurk @ Jun 1 2010, 04:20 PM) *
The US is not party to any rules of war. Being said, we conduct warfare in this manner to eventually reinforce the ideology that American forces are there to help. Eventually, the guerilla fighter should come to realize that he has received better treatment and care under the invasionary force then his own.

It would help more if the Afghans weren't all stupid as shit though.


i think if not for today's state of the media, this ideology will be just that, ideology. and afghan would be vietnam all over again with agent yellow and others.
after all US is in it to win it. now their soldiers are paying the price for playing good guys.
Yes, Vietnam, that famous American victory.

Is that really the citadel? Are those the values of "freedom" and "patriotism" that we're all supposed to be fighting for?

Is there no feeling that at the most basic level, we should try and behave morally? Be the best, not just at killing people but at doing things for a reason? Sad, the other side will resort to any level of foul play. I don't begrudge them it: imagine yourself in their position. The thing I dispute is their doing it in the name of a higher power answerable to no one, but again that's something we can't claim the high ground on.



Um yeah, we are there to help the good people like my Afghan teacher currently, who hates islam because the Talibs or Taliban came to the capital and killed between 60-80 thousands people in Kabul. Yeah there in an interesting part of history left out in most texts.

Anyway, doing the right thing, like you so cinematically wanted.
So, when you are on a patrol, where you stop at locals houses, ask for there medical needs, food needs, village needs in general (*This happens) and then you get ambushed or just random shots get fired at you by taliban, islamists, or others (*This happens) then you return fire to protect your life, and all the other squad members lives, oh, and if this sympathizer is down, he also cannot be the local bully to the Afghans who want peace. (*All that happens, people do want peace, others dont).


So, then, even though he is the enemy of innocence more importantly, and even on a lesser note, the American military life, because the innocent Afghan is clearly more important reason to protect, killing him, still wrong. Giving help to the man who knew he could try to continue homicide and terrorism, and totalitarianism among people who live in his country, is the right thing to do, because he knows we're trying to be good.......and uses our failed defense as his attack. Wow. You............nevermind.


*Denotes things a normal adult any place in the modern world should know but you refuse to accept.


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Passionate Homo ...
post Jun 5 2010, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (Bain @ Jun 5 2010, 05:55 AM) *
QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun 3 2010, 08:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Spoiler @ Jun 2 2010, 03:06 AM) *
QUOTE (NukaLurk @ Jun 1 2010, 04:20 PM) *
The US is not party to any rules of war. Being said, we conduct warfare in this manner to eventually reinforce the ideology that American forces are there to help. Eventually, the guerilla fighter should come to realize that he has received better treatment and care under the invasionary force then his own.

It would help more if the Afghans weren't all stupid as shit though.


i think if not for today's state of the media, this ideology will be just that, ideology. and afghan would be vietnam all over again with agent yellow and others.
after all US is in it to win it. now their soldiers are paying the price for playing good guys.
Yes, Vietnam, that famous American victory.

Is that really the citadel? Are those the values of "freedom" and "patriotism" that we're all supposed to be fighting for?

Is there no feeling that at the most basic level, we should try and behave morally? Be the best, not just at killing people but at doing things for a reason? Sad, the other side will resort to any level of foul play. I don't begrudge them it: imagine yourself in their position. The thing I dispute is their doing it in the name of a higher power answerable to no one, but again that's something we can't claim the high ground on.



Um yeah, we are there to help the good people like my Afghan teacher currently, who hates islam because the Talibs or Taliban came to the capital and killed between 60-80 thousands people in Kabul. Yeah there in an interesting part of history left out in most texts.

Anyway, doing the right thing, like you so cinematically wanted.
So, when you are on a patrol, where you stop at locals houses, ask for there medical needs, food needs, village needs in general (*This happens) and then you get ambushed or just random shots get fired at you by taliban, islamists, or others (*This happens) then you return fire to protect your life, and all the other squad members lives, oh, and if this sympathizer is down, he also cannot be the local bully to the Afghans who want peace. (*All that happens, people do want peace, others dont).


So, then, even though he is the enemy of innocence more importantly, and even on a lesser note, the American military life, because the innocent Afghan is clearly more important reason to protect, killing him, still wrong. Giving help to the man who knew he could try to continue homicide and terrorism, and totalitarianism among people who live in his country, is the right thing to do, because he knows we're trying to be good.......and uses our failed defense as his attack. Wow. You............nevermind.


*Denotes things a normal adult any place in the modern world should know but you refuse to accept.
I'm not disputing that the rules are stupid and tend towards over-protection of the Taliban. I actually wasn't disagreeing with the premise of the topic, rather the following posts which are an extreme reaction to the rules. The fact that I disagree with someone who agrees with your broad premise does not mean I am your enemy, the enemy of freedom that I love terrorists*.

I don't think the Taliban are good guys, or their ideology deserves any respect as you seem to suggest*. I did mention in a previous post on this page that, while asymmetric warfare is not in itself deplorable, the exact tactics (bombing innocents, taking advantage of compassion in bad faith) and the ideology behind it (religion-fuelled violence) are unacceptable. Again: the Taliban are reprehensible beyond anything almost any US soldier or organisation has been accused of, rightly or wrongly.

However, having invaded the country under the aegis of a coalition of legitimate states, there is a duty to behave well, and to be the best - again not just at killing. I don't agree that should necessarily be enforced by a bunch of directives. We certainly shouldn't, on discovering our enemies don't like us, resort to fighting an insurgency by calling off all bets and being not quite as bad as them.

If you'd rather just be rude or try and prove you're smarter or more right than me, then you could at least wait until I disagree with you. Not every attack on a right wing view is an attack on the entire right that I'm indulging in because I'm ignorant liberal scum who hates America*.

*Indicating general right-wing straw men.


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Bain
post Jun 5 2010, 11:48 PM
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QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun 5 2010, 08:46 AM) *
However, having invaded the country under the aegis of a coalition of legitimate states, there is a duty to behave well, and to be the best - again not just at killing. I don't agree that should necessarily be enforced by a bunch of directives. We certainly shouldn't, on discovering our enemies don't like us, resort to fighting an insurgency by calling off all bets and being not quite as bad as them.

If you'd rather just be rude or try and prove you're smarter or more right than me, then you could at least wait until I disagree with you. Not every attack on a right wing view is an attack on the entire right that I'm indulging in because I'm ignorant liberal scum who hates America*.

*Indicating general right-wing straw men.



Considering the situations of my friends speaking with the Afghan people face to face, and my personal contact with such people.......... considering the Afghan people see the war as a military situation taking place with the realm of where they live, not within their country.....

You see, they know there are arbitrary borders and thats how they consider them. They dont acknowledge them. So, to them, this is how this situation is....this is how they see the middle east, this is the area of the Poshtuan man:

http://img143.imageshack.us/i/warasitis.jpg/


The US military action in their eyes, happens to be taking place in Helmand. Only that. They realize that actions are happening against the Taliban. From village to village is an undeniable difference in world that most people in educated countries dont realize or wont contemplate.

So, the premise you present of us invading and the idea of being a better man, while it may be true for mainstream USA, and maybe UK, its not to an Afghan at all.

They have very few things they value in life. Honor, respect, and the rules and principles they set throughout their history. I currently spend days learning about Afghanistan from these people, most days or the week.

The idea you presented is true, but its only to be sufficient in front of the American publica, and Europe, icluding Britain.

As for you saying the view is right wing, well, Im glad you classify views according to a political system without thinking that they may be on a case by case basis. According to you, I dont have thoughts, No, Im agreeing with the right wing because my opinion is being forced through a tunnel that leads to that idea. Congratulations on classfication without allowing possibility of free choice backed by fact, and the opinion based on it.


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QD: -10
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Analogkid: -25
Psy: -8
Ast: +10
Treefitty: -10
Viceman: -59*
Massacre: +5
Spoiler: -14
Voodoo: +17

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Posts in this topic
- Bain   I fucking hate these rules.   Jun 1 2010, 12:29 PM
- - Stoic Person Eater   Let Allah sort them out.   Jun 1 2010, 01:29 PM
- - Spoiler   those bastards are smart. no wonder US still has n...   Jun 1 2010, 02:49 PM
- - El-Nino   they should let the fuckers die, even if they are ...   Jun 1 2010, 03:40 PM
|- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   QUOTE (El-Nino @ Jun 1 2010, 04:40 P...   Jun 1 2010, 03:50 PM
- - NukaLurk   The US is not party to any rules of war. Being sai...   Jun 1 2010, 04:20 PM
|- - TreeFitty   QUOTE (NukaLurk @ Jun 1 2010, 12:20 PM) T...   Jun 1 2010, 07:26 PM
- - ViceMan   Wait, they were transported back to a military hop...   Jun 1 2010, 05:44 PM
- - NCP   The Afghans are often skinny fuckers, so if he is ...   Jun 1 2010, 07:15 PM
- - Spoiler   QUOTE (NukaLurk @ Jun 1 2010, 04:20 PM) T...   Jun 2 2010, 02:06 AM
|- - NukaLurk   QUOTE (Spoiler @ Jun 1 2010, 10:06 PM) QU...   Jun 2 2010, 04:36 AM
- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   QUOTE (Spoiler @ Jun 2 2010, 03:06 AM) QU...   Jun 4 2010, 01:53 AM
|- - Bain   QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun...   Jun 5 2010, 04:55 AM
|- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   QUOTE (Bain @ Jun 5 2010, 05:55 AM) QUOTE...   Jun 5 2010, 02:46 PM
|- - Bain   QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun...   Jun 5 2010, 11:48 PM
- - demon   QUOTE (Bain @ Jun 1 2010, 02:29 PM) http:...   Jun 4 2010, 06:37 PM
- - Qdeathstar   I think its a good rule. they did forensic analysi...   Jun 4 2010, 10:40 PM
- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   QUOTE (demon @ Jun 4 2010, 07:37 PM) QUOT...   Jun 4 2010, 11:02 PM
|- - demon   QUOTE (Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester @ Jun...   Jun 4 2010, 11:26 PM
- - NukaLurk   Bain, don't be a dick. You don't know what...   Jun 5 2010, 06:43 AM
- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   I'm sorry about the right-wing jibe, but it is...   Jun 6 2010, 02:35 AM
- - Bain   My point was that the tactics that put our troops ...   Jun 6 2010, 03:24 PM
- - Passionate Homo Sapiens Ingester   While I appreciate that the opinion of Afghans is ...   Jun 6 2010, 05:55 PM
- - Bain   I can more or less say so-so to what you said so I...   Jun 7 2010, 12:50 AM


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