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> Loose Change, A video that will change everything you thought about 9/11
CaldMagi
post Nov 28 2005, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 28 2005, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1010087[/snapback]

And of course it got hotter, all of the flammable materials all collected together.

Flammable materials such as?


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Passionate Homo ...
post Nov 28 2005, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE(CaldMagi @ Nov 27 2005, 08:08 PM) [snapback]1009884[/snapback]

QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 27 2005, 08:07 PM) [snapback]1009820[/snapback]

Uh-huh. So the North Tower was a second faster? And I guess the fact that after about halfway down the dust and debries blocking our view of anything that happened after that is nothing?

Even if it came down in 10 seconds, it doesn't make sense because the resistence of 100+ floors would slow down the speed of which the towers came down, not accelerate it.

QUOTE
Bombs don't make things fall faster, they just throw them but gravity is still what brings it down.

When you throw a basketball of a roof, the basketball would reach the floor earlier than if you would simply drop the basketball, doesn't it? I hope you're not trying to say that if explosives brought down the towers, the speed of which it would've come down would not have been effected by this. Because that's absolutely ridiculous.

QUOTE
And besides that when each floor hit the one below that added more weight each time to crush the one below that. AKA more force to counteract resistence.

Fair enough. But then again, 13 storey's collapsed each second. There is no doubt each floor added more weight to cursh the one below, thus the lower floors would've collapsed at a faster rate than that of the upper floors. Meaning, the lower floors would actually fell EVEN FASTER THAN 13 STOREYS PER SECOND. Look at the video's of the towers collapsing, there is not much diffirence in the speed the top floors came crashing down and the lower floor crashing down - it came down at a pretty consistent rate.

QUOTE
Besides that how often have people timed how long it takes an office tower to fall in on itself?

Never. But people have timed how long office towers have been on fire and how many came down due to this. Apart from the Twin Towers, and WTC7, no office towers have collapsed due to fire, and towers OLDER than the WTCs have survived WORSE fires which raged for WAY LONGER, and DIDNT came down.

QUOTE
-EDIT-
Also, like I said before, how do you think they managed to plant explosives in key ares of 3 major office buildings without anybody seeing anything at all in the middle of downtown Manhattan?

Watch the video.

QUOTE
Also from Wikipedia.org:
QUOTE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-11_domestic...e_Center_towers
As far as the speed, a consensus has yet to be reached as to the exact duration of the fall. The most widely used number is at 10 seconds. Objects thrown away from the building are photographically depicted falling only slightly faster than the actual building, suggesting the towers fell at free fall speeds.


Yes, free fall speeds. How? How can 110 storeys of concrete and massive steel collums come down at free fal without any resistance whatsoever?
Free fall includes resistance. There's no such thing as falling without resistance.

The pictures:

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It knocks it off balance, in simple terms. If I start going on about Physics it'll be no use to anyone...

Either way - who cares? The towers fell, 2000 people died. If there was a controlled explosion, the towers fell, 2000 people died. If it was a plane hitting the towers fell, 2000 people died. If someone threw a can of coke at it then the building fell, and 2000 died. What's the difference?

This post has been edited by mello_yello: Nov 28 2005, 03:44 PM


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Qdeathstar
post Nov 28 2005, 04:15 PM
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I dont see that Any of the wacko conspiracy sources are better than one of OptimumPX sources.


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CaldMagi
post Nov 28 2005, 04:15 PM
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Whether it was the US government who is responsible for the attacks (or at least took part in it / let it happen) or it was Bin Laden who is responsible makes a HUGE difference. You wouldn't want a bunch of terrorists leading your country, would you?


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Passionate Homo ...
post Nov 28 2005, 05:25 PM
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Too late >_>


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drive carfuly,because every secend a shrak can teleport itself to your car, and try to drive your car (if you have one) with shark in it.
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OptimumPx
post Nov 28 2005, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE(CaldMagi @ Nov 28 2005, 06:12 AM) [snapback]1010580[/snapback]

QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 28 2005, 12:07 AM) [snapback]1010087[/snapback]

And of course it got hotter, all of the flammable materials all collected together.

Flammable materials such as?

What do you think is in an office building anyway?

Paper, desks, chairs, lamps, potted plants, removable walls, paper towels, and people. All flammable and packed together.

And as for you other question, the US Government couldn't even pull it off even if it wanted to.
QUOTE
http://www.alternet.org/story/12536/
So let's start with a broad question: would U.S. officials be capable of such a foul deed? Capable -- as in able to pull it off and willing to do so. Simply put, the spies and special agents are not good enough, evil enough, or gutsy enough to mount this operation. That conclusion is based partly on, dare I say it, common sense, but also on years spent covering national security matters. (For a book I wrote on the CIA, I interviewed over 100 CIA officials and employees.)

Not good enough: Such a plot -- to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes and make it appear as if it all was done by another party -- is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme. They would have to work together, and trust one another not to blow their part or reveal the conspiracy. They would hail from an assortment of agencies (CIA, FBI, INS, Customs, State, FAA, NTSB, DOD, etc.).

Yet anyone with the most basic understanding of how government functions (or does not function) realizes that the various bureaucracies of Washington -- particularly those of the national security "community" -- do not work well together. Even covering up advance knowledge would require an extensive plot. If there truly had been intelligence reports predicting the 9/11 attacks, these reports would have circulated through intelligence and policymaking circles before the folks at the top decided to smother them for geopolitical gain. That would make for a unwieldy conspiracy of silence. And in either scenario -- planning the attacks or permitting them to occur -- everyone who participated in the conspiracy would have to be freakin' sure that all the other plotters would stay quiet.


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Qdeathstar
post Nov 28 2005, 05:58 PM
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Yes, thats right, because it would mean that almost everyone leading our country was in on it.. ... I dont think most of our leaders are that evil.

Besides that, whats the benefit? Payoff? ect.


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Baldman_Sonetti
post Nov 28 2005, 06:02 PM
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Control of the Iraqi oilfields? I think its bullshit, but I suppose Sept 11 was used to justify invading Afghanistan, which put troops in place for invading Iraq...


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OptimumPx
post Nov 28 2005, 06:09 PM
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Then why go through the trouble of blaming Al Qaeda when you want Iraq? Just go ahead and say Iraq did it.


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Qdeathstar
post Nov 28 2005, 06:10 PM
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From what im seeing, the United States isnt getting the oil fields in Iraq... and besides that, you'd need bi-partison support for something this big...


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Baldman_Sonetti
post Nov 28 2005, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 28 2005, 07:37 PM) [snapback]1010881[/snapback]

Then why go through the trouble of blaming Al Qaeda when you want Iraq? Just go ahead and say Iraq did it.



There were claims before the Iraqi invasion that Saddam funded al-Qaeda.


And true, I don't think the US will get the oil fields, but they wouldn't have known that at the time...


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CaldMagi
post Nov 28 2005, 06:35 PM
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So the spies and special agents are not good enough nor capable of pulling off the attacks, but Bin Laden and his militants, who supposedly orchestrated the entire attack from a cave could? I didn't know the U.S. intelligence was so rubbish.

Besides, there's still the question of whether or not the U.S. government had foreknowledge of the attacks. For example, why were government officials advised not to board any commercial airplanes the day of 9/11? Why did airplanes suddenly dissapeared on the radars, and how could the airplane that was heading towards the Pentagon (flight 77) be off course for more than 30-40 minutes, while already 2 planes crashed into the Twin Towers? You'd think they would smell something suspicious when a plane suddenly changes it's course.

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But I guess there's nothing suspicious about it right? Or it was total chaos, who could've guessed this airplane was going to fly into something as well?

They lost radio communication, you'd think something like that wouldn't go unnoticed and would be slightly suspicious (especially on 9/11), but that's just my take.

QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 28 2005, 08:23 PM) [snapback]1010866[/snapback]

Paper, desks, chairs, lamps, potted plants, removable walls, paper towels, and people. All flammable and packed together.

Paper, desks, chairs and paper towels could keep a fire raging for weeks and weeks with degrees of 1300ļF? Even after days and days of spraying water?

This post has been edited by CaldMagi: Nov 28 2005, 06:36 PM


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OptimumPx
post Nov 28 2005, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE(CaldMagi @ Nov 28 2005, 03:03 PM) [snapback]1010906[/snapback]

So the spies and special agents are not good enough nor capable of pulling off the attacks, but Bin Laden and his militants, who supposedly orchestrated the entire attack from a cave could? I didn't know the U.S. intelligence was so rubbish.

Besides, there's still the question of whether or not the U.S. government had foreknowledge of the attacks. For example, why were government officials advised not to board any commercial airplanes the day of 9/11? Why did airplanes suddenly dissapeared on the radars, and how could the airplane that was heading towards the Pentagon (flight 77) be off course for more than 30-40 minutes, while already 2 planes crashed into the Twin Towers? You'd think they would smell something suspicious when a plane suddenly changes it's course.

IPB Image

But I guess there's nothing suspicious about it right? Or it was total chaos, who could've guessed this airplane was going to fly into something as well?

They lost radio communication, you'd think something like that wouldn't go unnoticed and would be slightly suspicious (especially on 9/11), but that's just my take.

Read the quote.

It says that the US Government couldn't have done it because it's impossible. They couldn't keep everybody quiet about it, nor could they be certain that other people involved wouldn't rat them out. Al Qaeda on the other hand has no such problem, and was in fact happy to take responsibility.

And with the way that the FBI and CIA couldn't even get along trying to do anything after 9/11 what makes you think they could get together and plan something like that and keep it quiet before 9/11?

And now your saying it must have been a conspiracy because the government didnt respond to 9/11 perfectly with information getting to everyone on time? You must be living in a dream world if you think the US Government could have done anything perfectly in response to a crisis, just look at FEMA and Hurricane Katrina. dry.gif

On 9/11 it was pure chaos. The first tower was hit at 8:47 am by American Airlines Flight 11. Prior to 9/11 the standard procedure for hijacked flights was to do as the hijacker said and wait for them to land the plane and issue their demands. Therefore no fighter planes were sent off right away. The local Air Traffic Control most likely thought they were heading for the airport at this point.

By the time American Airlines Flight 77's transponder stoped working at 8:56 am the FAA must have been panicking. They have no training for this, they have no idea what to do. Hell, they don't even order all planes to land in the Northeast until 9:06 am and doesn't officially ground all planes nationwide until 9:40 am. The FAA doesn't even tell NORAD that Flight 77 had been hijacked until 9:24 am, 13 minutes before it hit.

Nobody had a fucking clue as to what they were doing. To pretend that they should have done everything like it was in a blockbuster movie is ludicrous and extremely unrealistic.
QUOTE(CaldMagi @ Nov 28 2005, 03:03 PM) [snapback]1010906[/snapback]
QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 28 2005, 08:23 PM) [snapback]1010866[/snapback]

Paper, desks, chairs, lamps, potted plants, removable walls, paper towels, and people. All flammable and packed together.

Paper, desks, chairs and paper towels could keep a fire raging for weeks and weeks with degrees of 1300ļF? Even after days and days of spraying water?

Yes, 220 floors worth of paper, desks, chairs, people that was 4 stories deep into the ground could pull that off quite nicely.


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Lord Steve0
post Nov 28 2005, 07:46 PM
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I'd have to agree with you about it being chaos there.

I mean imagine this, one tower gets hit and everyone is going SHIT! Then you loose another plane and again you go SHIT! By this time there are two burnig towers in downtown NY and you have two more planes missing, plus several hundred planes that are very worried and confused as they probably guessed something was up by now. It would take ages to get all the planes down and you could easily loose a few more in that time. Remember they thought there were up to 10 planes missing at one point! Total chaos.

On the bomb theory: How much explosive would you need? I'd hazzard a guess and say a LOT of explosive.
They just demolised 5 tower blocks in Glasgow and needed 300kg of explosive to take out these ancient crumbling blocks. To take out super-storng 110 story buildings i'd imagine you'd need a lot more explosive in each one. And you gotta get it up to the 100th odd floor and plant it, arm it set fusses, and get it positioned perfectly so that it was hidden when the plane hit. In downtown NY i imagine that is rather hard to do.

Finally, who flew the planes? Could you persuade a guy to do this? I doubt it. And could you reallyrig 4 planes for remote control? I'd doubt that too, not without someone noticing it. Plus remote controlled jumbo jets don't fly too well from the look of videos i've seen.
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Qdeathstar
post Nov 29 2005, 04:55 AM
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you need more exploses so that you can have a controlled implostion.. and to ensure that thebuilding doesnt resist the explosiona (meaning weekend structural integrety, but still standing. Once you set the exploes, you want to make sure it fallls.


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CaldMagi
post Nov 29 2005, 05:58 AM
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Funny how you guys think you will need ALOT of explosives to bring down the towers, but think it is perfectly feasible for a single airplane (and some office fire) to bring down each tower. Not even mentioning WTC7.


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OptimumPx
post Nov 29 2005, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(CaldMagi @ Nov 29 2005, 02:26 AM) [snapback]1011606[/snapback]

Funny how you guys think you will need ALOT of explosives to bring down the towers, but think it is perfectly feasible for a single airplane (and some office fire) to bring down each tower. Not even mentioning WTC7.
Explosives are used to kick the legs put from under the building, so to speak, and you would need to place them at all of the major support locations throughout the building to bring it down safely in only a few seconds and not sideways on top of the World Financial Center across the street or something.

But that 'single airplane,' which was full of fuel and was akin to hundreds of bombs, smashed into the building sending explosive jet fuel right into the structure (ya, that's only just 'some office fire') it gradually over an hour caused the building's steel supports to weaken and melt till they were so weak that they couldnít support the higher floors anymore, sending those floors straight down onto the lower floors.

Ta Da! Bye, bye World Trade Center. dry.gif


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CaldMagi
post Nov 29 2005, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE(OptimumPx @ Nov 29 2005, 04:55 PM) [snapback]1011746[/snapback]

But that 'single airplane,' which was full of fuel and was akin to hundreds of bombs, smashed into the building sending explosive jet fuel right into the structure (ya, that's only just 'some office fire') it gradually over an hour caused the building's steel supports to weaken and melt till they were so weak that they couldnít support the higher floors anymore, sending those floors straight down onto the lower floors.

You seem to forget most of the fuel exploded OUTSIDE of the towers.

Huge explosion outside the towers:
IPB Image

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Note that this was the SECOND tower hit, which burned for only an hour, and collapsed FIRST. Indicating that jet fuel wasn't the main reason the towers collapsed, because if it was... the North Tower would've collapsed first, as more jet fuel exploded INSIDE this tower, and it burned for a LONGER time.


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OptimumPx
post Nov 29 2005, 03:00 PM
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...and the explosion wasnít all of the jet fuel. It was a lot, but not all.

And on the second tower (and I think Mello already covered this part) the plane took out one of the major supports of the tower, the corner. This dramatically weakened the building more then Tower 1 allowing it to fall before the other did.


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Qdeathstar
post Nov 29 2005, 03:14 PM
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besides that, if it was bombs, what made it stay up after than, there werent any explosions after the airplains crashed.


besides that, the jet fuei isnt the only thing that burned. the sheetrock, HUGE amount of paper, ect is what burned.

have you ever started a fire? when it first starts out it istn that hot, but evenutally, kendling begeins to form, which is superheated, the same thing happened inside the twin towers, the fire burned, the BOLTS holding it together (and some of the beems) melted. In addition, [b]you dont have to get to the MELTING point of steel for it to become structurally unsound[b], all you have to do is heat it up to a point where it can bend a little, then bend a litte more, until the bolts holding the beems together snap.

So, those 5-6 floors collapsed. The force excerted by the floors above (not with no support, crashed into the floors beneeth. The twin towers were ment to survive horizontal shock (Not fires kick started by jet fuel) not verticle shocks, so the floors collapsed on themsleves.


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